Sunday, December 19, 2010

craigslist pulls "erotic services" worldwide -- congratulations!:)

good news! I'd like to think they heard me (the P.S. to prior post))... but, in any case, good decision! although it is not at all clear that it was done for the right reasons... (like some of the media coverage says) ultimately, it's really good they did do it!


P.S. since I am in a congratulatory mood, is this Craig Newmark playing the violin at the Toronto Askenaz music festival? (while I am not Jewish myself, I like the music a lot! -- the fact that I grew up in Romania might have helped, there is a strong Romanian influence (under "style") as far as the tunes go but there is certainly a unique interpretation and special effects) ~D.

Tuesday, September 14, 2010

craigslist current issues

I'm just going to address some issue that I see relevant at the moment, in no particular order (things I've recently seen people argue incorrectly)

1) craigslist (and similar companies) is like the phone company <--> the internet provider craigslist uses is like the phone company, but craigslist itself is like a company that would solicit ads to be recorded through the phone and then allow the public to call in and access those ads; as far as I understand it, such a company would be legally liable if it promoted crime

2).ads are moving to other sites so we are no better off by shutting down craigslist erotic/adult section <--> what made craigslist such a big problem in the US (and still does internationally) was its efficiency, moving those ads to less efficient places would normally result in less harm; however, if ONE company would manage to recapture virtually all the "formally-craigslist erotic/adult ads", that would be a real concern and should be shut down ASAP

3). child trafficking is just moving from the streets to the internet <--> I really don't think that's the ONLY thing that's going on here, I believe it is to be expected that MORE (perhaps MUCH more) child trafficking actually results when such an efficient market as craigslist exists; I
would also expect copycat child trafficking to result when potential criminals realize that although a small percentage of traffickers are apprehended, the vast majority of them are NOT!

4). we are better off having them post on the web so that the police can just check the ads and find the criminals <--> given the very limited police resources available and the fact that it is considerably MORE expensive --time-wise and resource-wise-- to bring criminals to justice this way (see explanation in policeman's lawsuit against craigslist) this would only make sense if local police would be allowed to set the number of ads that appear on the site to a number they can manage; opening up the floodgates and expecting the police to do anything beyond catch a few cases
is well-meaning but ignorant at best...

5). it is a free speech issue<--> *forum* posts are a free speech issue, NOT ad posts (the function of an ad -- ANY ad -- is commerce, the function of a forum post is speech; an ad posted in the forums would, of course, still be an ad and should abide by legal regulation of ads

alright, now about the INTERNATIONAL issue: as far as I can see, there is no reason to conclude the moral issue is different for erotic sections provided for countries other than the U.S.; the legal issues are bound to differ but hopefully craigslist will take the moral high ground and not even bother with that

the main problem I see is that craigslist might believe -- rightly or wrongly -- (there has been some evidence to support this) that it was the allowing (or actually cultivating?) of the "sex sections" of craigslist that grew the site beyond anybody's expectation in the U.S.

and it will do the same abroad, given time...

so from a strictly "business" POV it might appear that pulling "the sex sections" at this point would prevent the international craigslist site to reach its potential in term of overall ads, hits and eventually profit

so the challenge is to convince craigslist that it should put moral consideration before financial ones, that it shouldn't WANT success abroad if it would take "helping out" child traffickers...


P.S. I would certainly like to believe that, in spite of Stephen's evidence, craigslist grew as a result of building a useful community and NOT as a result of all that smut.. and that if that's what it took to grow the site abroad, Craig Newmark and Jim Buckmaster would pass... D.

100 Experts in Letter to Craigslist: Complete the Job, Now

MORE (craigslist current issue)

sorry... took me longer than I thought, again...

as already said, I hope the group succeeds and am glad to post the press release on my blog; will also post my take on what I see as the current issues, in a separate entry...D.


For Immediate Release

Andrea Austin

Craigslist Must Complete the Job

In Advance of Congressional Hearing Where Craigslist Will Testify,
100 Experts Send Letter to Craigslist Insisting It Close Erotic Sections Worldwide

WASHINGTON, September 14, 2010—On the eve of a Congressional hearing on the sex trafficking of children, 100 leading anti-trafficking experts and organizations sent a letter to Craigslist founder Craig Newmark and CEO Jim Buckmaster calling for the immediate, permanent and complete removal of all Craigslist Adult and Erotic Services sections, worldwide. While these sections were closed in the United States, they remain open in more than 250 cities around the world.

Tomorrow, September 15, 2010, the House of Representatives’ Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security will hear testimony from law enforcement, advocacy groups, and Members of Congress who will speak on child sex trafficking in general and Craigslist’s continuing role as a platform that enables it. William Powell, Director of Customer Service and Law Enforcement Relations for Craigslist, and Elizabeth McDougall, Craigslist’s legal counsel, are scheduled to testify at the hearing.

Here are some highlights from the letter:

We thank you for voluntarily closing the Adult Services section of Craigslist in the United States. While this is a positive step, Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. More than 250 Craigslist sites exist around the world that still feature “Erotic” sections where trafficked children and women are being sold for sex.

That you have not made the same improvements globally across your site reveals a disingenuous and inconsistent response on your part. Moreover, the few helpful actions you have taken do not measure up to the amount of daily harm being facilitated by Craigslist through the thousands of Erotic Services ads around the world each day.

The anti-trafficking field is standing with solidarity and unity, and collectively asking you to take down all the Adult and Erotic sections worldwide, completely and permanently.

The letter comes as international law enforcement officials have begun calling on Craigslist to follow through on its commitment to end the sexual trafficking of children and women. Last week, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police called on Craigslist to close the section in Canada:

The full text of the letter and the list of signatories are below.

September 14, 2010
Sent via facsimile

Jim Buckmaster, CEO
Craig Newmark, Founder
Craigslist, Inc.
1381 9th Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94122

Dear Craig Newmark & Jim Buckmaster,

The experts in the anti-trafficking field who have signed this letter stand together asking you to shut down all the Adult and Erotic Services sections of your website around the world.

We all know that plenty of activity has preceded this letter. There have been meetings, news articles, research studies, protests, letters from survivors, blogs, boycotts, earnings estimates, lawsuits, subpoenas, and plenty of other actions. The voices of survivors, advocates, service providers, local law enforcement, members of Congress, and State Attorneys General have all implored you to do more to fight the sex trafficking of women and girls that occurs on your site.

We thank you for voluntarily closing the Adult Services section of Craigslist in the United States. While this is a positive step, Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. More than 250 Craigslist sites exist around the world that still feature “Erotic” sections where trafficked children and women are being sold for sex through your website.

Of particular concern is your repeated statement that anti-trafficking “experts” are supportive of your approach. For example, in one of Jim Buckmaster’s online responses on the Huffington Post, he states, “To the contrary, we are convinced Craigslist is a vital part of the solution to this age-old scourge. We've been told as much by experts on the front lines of this fight…”

There are some who may want you to keep the Erotic Services sections going outside the United States for various reasons. Sex traffickers surely want you to keep the sections going because it helps them make high profits by advertising women and children to large audiences of paying customers. “Johns” who pay for commercial sex want you to keep the section because your site makes it easy and less risky for them to buy women and girls simply by surfing the Internet and perusing the photos on various ads. There may even be some law enforcement officials who see some value in placing decoy ads on your site, or using Craigslist ads as evidence in an investigation. However, we highly doubt that on balance, law enforcement would condone a venue that is a platform for the sex trafficking of women and children. The recent letter signed by 17 State Attorneys General strongly suggests that many law enforcement officials believe the best solution is to close the section, as you have done in the United States.

The signers of this letter are the experts on the issue of human trafficking. Many of us work on the front lines, directly with victims on a daily basis. Some of us are survivors of human trafficking.

With this letter, we are telling you that on the whole, Craigslist’s Adult and Erotic Services sections continue to be more part of the problem than part of the solution.

On the day that Craigslist shut down its Adult Services section in the United States, were the pimps and johns who depend on the site to advance the sex trade happy or upset? The answer to this question should help guide your path forward as you address the remaining “Erotic” sections around the world.

We acknowledge that there are some things that Craigslist has done that are part of the solution. Offering to meet with law enforcement and non-profits is a good thing. The decision to start screening the Adults Services ads was a step forward. Eliminating the blatant nudity that persisted in past years in the United States’ Erotic section was also a step forward. Posting national hotlines, and cooperating with law enforcement when cases are found is useful and laudable. As stated above, voluntarily shutting down the Adult Services section in the United States is also a step in the right direction. Despite such steps forward, these efforts are not enough.

We are deeply concerned that you have not yet taken down the Erotic Services sections across the globe. We are also concerned that it seems that you are not applying the screening techniques that were used in the United States to all the other Erotic Services sections worldwide. In changing the name of the Adult Services section from "Erotic" to "Adult" in the United States, why did you not implement this change globally across your entire site? Furthermore, for the “Adult Services” pages in the United States, there was a “Warning & Disclaimer” page that discusses human trafficking and sexual exploitation. This disclaimer page is also present for the “Erotic” sections in Canada. Yet, as of the date of this letter, there is no “Warning & Disclaimer” page for the other international “Erotic” pages. Nudity is also still present in the photos associated with some “Erotic” ads in the international pages. The reality that you have not made the same improvements globally across your site reveals a disingenuous and inconsistent response on your part. Moreover, the few helpful actions you have taken do not measure up to the amount of daily harm being facilitated by Craigslist through the thousands of Erotic Services ads around the world each day.

In a recent letter, Jim Buckmaster stated that human trafficking ads are “quite rare” on Craigslist. Based on our experience and collective knowledge, we know that the presence of human traffickers on your site is more frequent than you realize. Traffickers have figured out ways to post pictures of clothed women and children that can get past your screeners. The anti-trafficking field has yet to be presented with a meaningful solution of how you intend to guarantee that no children are being sexually exploited on your site. As a result, we ask that you take down the Adult or Erotic sections, wherever they appear on Craigslist.

Another important reality for you to realize is that law enforcement does not currently have the resources to review and conduct an investigation of every single Adult or Erotic Services ad on your site. The sheer volume of ads outpaces law enforcement's ability to respond to each one. Consequently, maintaining the Erotic Services sections in other countries enables the majority of Erotic ads to thrive without a law enforcement deterrent. Cooperating with law enforcement when a rare case is brought is a short-term solution, not reflective of an overall systemic analysis of the crime problem that you are enabling.

You have asserted that removing the Adult or Erotic Services sections will not entirely eliminate the presence of sex ads on your site. This may be true, but eliminating the centralized thoroughfares of each designated "Erotic Services" section seriously disrupts pimps and johns who buy and sell women and children on Craigslist. Closing this section of Craigslist across the globe will send a clear signal to sexual predators that you will not stand for them using the site to sexually exploit children and women.

You argue that there are other online sites that advertise sex ads. Yes, the signers of this letter are aware of other sites with adult ads, and we are working to address those sites as well. But frankly, the user volume and name recognition of those sites pales in comparison to yours. They are not a household name like Craigslist.

We collectively feel that if you are seriously committed to ending the site’s use as a platform for sex trafficking of women and children, you will apply the same approach you recently took in the United States and immediately close the remaining Erotic sections around the world.

If you continue to keep the Erotic sections outside of the United States, we ask that you at least be honest and more specific about the reasons why you are keeping them. After receiving this letter, please do not claim that it is because anti-trafficking “experts” agree with you and wholly support your approach.

In closing, we note that in one of Jim Buckmaster’s recent letters, he asked the question: “Would it not be a step backward to confine adult ads to venues that don't cooperate with law enforcement, that don't care what advocacy groups and nonprofits have to say?”

This statement seems to indicate that Craigslist does care what advocacy groups and nonprofits have to say, more than other venues. If this is true, then you must care about this letter. Please hear what we have to say, read the signers of this letter, and recognize that the anti-trafficking field is standing with solidarity and unity, and collectively asking you to take down all the Adult and Erotic sections worldwide, completely and permanently.


Bradley Myles
Executive Director & CEO
Polaris Project

Malika Saada Saar
Executive Director & Founder
The Rebecca Project for Human Rights

Eliza Reock
Executive Director
Harold & Kayrita Anderson Family Foundation

Carol Smolenski
Executive Director & Co-Founder

Linda Smith (U.S. Congress 1994-98)
Founder & President
Shared Hope International

Kaffie McCullough
Campaign Director
A Future. Not A Past.

Jennifer & Peter Buffett
NoVo Foundation

Lisa L. Thompson
Liaison for the Abolition of Sexual Trafficking
The Salvation Army – National Headquarters, USA

Suzanne Koepplinger
Executive Director
Minnesota Indian Women’s Resource Center (MIWRC)

Lee Rope-Batker
President & Chief Executive Officer
Women’s Foundation of Minnesota

Vednita Carter
Executive Director & Founder
Breaking Free

Andrea Powell
Executive Director & Co-Founder

Norma Ramos, Esq.
Executive Director
Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW)

Kevin Bales
President & Co-founder
Free the Slaves

Rachel Lloyd
Founder & Executive Director
Girls Educational & Mentoring Services (GEMS)

Laura J. Lederer
Global Centurion

William Livermore
Executive Director
Somaly Mam Foundation

Maria A. Trujillo
Executive Director
Houston Rescue & Restore Coalition

Sonia Ossorio
Executive Director
National Organization for Women, New York City Chapter (NOW-NYC)

Amb. Mark P. Lagon
International Relations Chair
Georgetown University MSFS Program

Tina Frundt
Executive Director & Founder
Courtney’s House

Michele Garnett McKenzie
Director of Advocacy
The Advocates for Human Rights

Rachel Durchslag
Executive Director
Chicago Alliance Against Sexual Exploitation (CAASE)

Marisa Ugarte
Executive Director
Bilateral Safety Corridor Coalition (BSCC)

Lisa Goldblatt Grace
Program Director
My Life, My Choice

Frank Massolini
The Salvation Army

Laura Penny
Executive Director
Women’s Foundation of Southern Arizona

Frank N. Barnaba
Founder & President
The Barnaba Institute

Debi M. Harris
Chief Executive Officer
Women’s Fund of Miami-Dade

Carol B. Penick
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Mississippi

Dorchen A. Leidholdt
Director, Center for Battered Women’s Legal Services
Sanctuary for Families

Elaine Maly
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Greater Milwaukee

Central Ohio Rescue & Restore Coalition

Cassondra Johnson Blackbird
Executive Director
Sexual Assault Program of Beltrami, Cass & Hubbard Counties

Chris Newlin
Executive Director
National Children’s Advocacy Center

Heather Arnet
Chief Executive Officer
Women & Girls Foundation of Southwest Pennsylvania

Donna M. Hughes
Professor & Carlson Endowed Chair
Women’s Studies Program
University of Rhode Island

Sharon Simpson-Joseph
Executive Director
Juvenile Justice Fund

Marissa Castellanos
Human Trafficking Project Manager
Catholic Charities of Louisville

Michelle Miller
Executive Director
Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity (REED)

Ronna L. Bright
Project Coordinator
Central Valley Against Human Trafficking & Central Valley Freedom Coalition

Tania DoCarmo
Director & Vice President
Chab Dai USA

Helen Sworn
Director & Founder
Chab Dai Coalition

Kristy Childs
Executive Director & Founder
Veronica’s Voice

Mark & Keisha Hoerner
Ethical Living, Inc.

Sara K. Gould
President & CEO
Ms. Foundation for Women

Diana Mao
NOMI Network

Melanie Shapiro
Citizens Against Trafficking

Mary Frances Bowley
Wellspring Living, Inc.

Jennifer Mitchell
Assistant Director PROMISE Program
The Salvation Army

Anne Lee
President & CEO
Darkness to Light

Daria Mueller
Policy Specialist
Prostitution Alternatives Round Table (PART) of the Chicago Coalition for the Homeless

Glenda L. McClendon
Office Manager
PACE Center for Girls, Inc.

Barbara Mosacchio
Chief Executive Officer
Atlanta Women’s Foundation

Gordon Heller
Chair, Steering Committee
Dayton Southeast Weed & Seed Project

Dr. Daniel Bercu
Doctors at War on Trafficking in Persons

Colette Bercu
Free for Life International

Carol Arthur
Executive Director
Domestic Abuse Project

Marcia Coné
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Rhode Island

Kara Fagan
The Women’s Fund of Great Chattanooga

Nicola Goren
Washington Area Women’s Foundation

Charlotte Boatwright
Chattanooga Domestic Violence Coalition

Emily Fitchpatrick
Founder & President
On Eagles Wings Ministries & The Hope House

Pam Strickland
Eastern North Carolina Stop Human Trafficking Now

Victor Vieth
National Child Protection Training Center (NCPTC)

Madeliene H. Dobbins
Director & Chief Administrative Officer
Delta Research & Educational Foundation

Deborah Sigmund
Founder & Director
Innocents at Risk

Benjamin Nolot
Exodus Cry

Sidney Ford
Director & Founder
You Are Never Alone (YANA)

Jeff Bauer
Director Public Policy & Civic Engagement
The Family Partnership

Anna Rodriguez
Executive Director & Founder
Florida Coalition Against Human Trafficking

Melissa Gifford
Executive Director & DVTF Team Coordinator
Four Points, Inc.

Kathryn Xian
Non-Executive Director & Founder
Girl Fest Hawaii

Stephanie Davis
Executive Director
Georgia Women for Change, Inc.

Stacia Freeman
Executive Director
The Home Foundation

Erik Voss
Executive Director
The International Center of Atlanta

Sandra J. Robinson
Program Coordinator
Western Kentucky Refugee Mutual Assistance
The International Center of Bowling & Owensboro

Danelle Ragoonanan-Storph
Project Rescue & Assist New Americans
International Institute of Connecticut, Inc.

Kathy Maskell
US Prevention Advisor

End Internet Trafficking Coalition

Marie Morin
Eastern Regional Director
Long Island Task Force

The Lucas County Human Trafficking Coalition

Donna Dunn
Executive Director
Minnesota Coalition Against Sexual Assault (MNCASA)

Cyndi Cook
Executive Director
Minnesota Coalition for Battered Women

Claudia Barlow
Chair of the Board

Jeannette Pai-Espinosa
The National Crittenton Foundation

Veronica Lamb
Outreach Director
Pacific Alliance to Stop Slavery

Sandra L. Hollett
Chief Executive Officer
Partnership for Families, Children & Adults

Dianne Post
Phoenix Women Take Back the Night

Kristyn Komarnicki
PRISM Magazine
Evangelicals for Social Action

Candice Harshner
Executive Director
Program for Aid to Victims of Sexual Assault (PAVSA)

Donna Sabella
Project Phoenix

Trisha Smouse
Anti-Human Trafficking Program Manager
The Salvation Army of Central Ohio

Amy L. Hartman
Diaconal Minister & National Director
Cherish Our Children

Kathie Logan
Program Manager
Sexual Assault Center of NWGA

8th Day Center for Justice

Cordelia Anderson
Sexual Health & Responsibility Program (SHARP)

Renee Morrison
Chairman & Founder
In My Backyard Foundation

Gregory Marx
In My Backyard Foundation

Adeyemi Oshodi
Director of Anti-Trafficking Programs
World Hope International (WHI)

Ann Buwulda
Jubilee Campaign USA

Serena Connelly
Human Rights Initiative of North Texas

Holy Union Sisters

Central Dallas Ministries

Tuesday, September 7, 2010

Conference call tomorrow (9/8) at 11 AM EST on Craigslist and Adult Services Section


MORE: sorry I couldn't make it! (turned out to be one crazy day); will try to post this weekend about the international issue


P.S. pleased to see the group is giving craigslist the chance to join the good fight (whatever the history, it is most important that things go as well as possible from now on) D.

That sounds great. If you would like to listen into the call or ask any questions, I can send you the call in. Otherwise, we would appreciate, very much, the posting.


Katherine Miller
Managing Director
Hattaway Communications
m: +1 202 489 2205
s: kmillerdc

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:53 PM, dperiod wrote:

> Hi Brad and Katherine! Thanks for letting me know... It's just that I'm not quite sure what this is asking from me, if anything. Although I've been blogging about craigslist for quite a while, I am not at all "credentialed press" and do not travel in order to get info about craigslist. Part of it is the fact that I need to preserve my privacy (my blogs would look very different if I thought I'd give up my privacy at some point). I do wish you success and would be glad to post the press release on my blog if you'd like that! Let me know if I can help with anything else... thanks! ~Delia
> ----- Original message -----
> Sent: 2010/09/07 17:59:51
> Subject: Re: Conference call tomorrow (9/8) at 11 AM EST on Craigslist and Adult Services Section
> I hope that you will be able to join Malika Saada Saar, from the Rebecca Project, and Bradley Myles, from Polaris Project, for a call focused on Craigslist's recent decision to close down the US-based Adult Services section and continuing efforts to encourage Craigslist to take additional steps to address global sex trafficking. Details are below. The statement they released today is also pasted below, for your information.
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
> Katherine Miller
> Managing Director
> Hattaway Communications
> e:
> m: +1 202 489 2205
> s: kmillerdc
> What: Press conference call with:
> Bradley Myles, Executive Director, Polaris Project
> Malika Saada Saar, Executive Director, Rebecca Project for Human Rights
> About: Sex trafficking on Craigslist
> When: Wednesday, Sept. 8, 2010 11:00 AM EST
> Dial-in: Credentialed press only. RSVP to for dial-in code.
> Statement on Craigslist
> For Immediate Release: Contact: Bradley Myles
> September 7, 2010 Polaris Project
> 202-507-7956
> Anti-Trafficking Experts Call for Craigslist to Close Adult Services Outside the U.S.
> WASHINGTON — Four leading organizations that work on ending the sex trafficking of children and young women issued the following statement in response to Craigslist’s decision to close its adult service section in the United States:
> “We thank Craig Newmark and Jim Buckmaster for voluntarily closing the adult services section of Craigslist in the United States. As the largest classified ads site to have an adult services section, Craigslist has become a major marketplace for buying and selling sex with children and young women. An FBI investigation found 2,800 ads selling sex with children in the adult services section in 2008 alone. Closing this section of Craigslist sends a clear signal to sexual predators that it will not stand for them using the site to sexually enslave children and young women.”
> “While this is a good first step in the U.S., there are still more than 250 other Craigslist ‘erotic’ pages around the world where children and young women are still being sold for sex through Craigslist. Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. It should immediately shut down the ‘erotic’ services sections across the globe.” [In many areas, “adult services” is called “erotic services.”]
> “We hope that closing this section only in the U.S. was not simply a PR move in advance of a Congressional hearing on September 15th on sex trafficking where Craigslist has been called to testify. If Craigslist is seriously committed to ending the site’s use as a platform for sex trafficking and the sexual enslavement of children and young women, it will immediately close the remaining sections around the world.”
> Signed,
> Polaris Project, Rebecca Project for Human Rights, FAIR Fund, Courtney’s House

Monday, September 6, 2010

craigslist sycophants are speeding up the changing of the law believed to allow craigslist to worsen all sort of ills

...and no major overhaul would be needed, just to specify what to me appears to be obvious: that if you *know* (or should reasonably know) that things like child trafficking are rampant on your site, you HAVE TO adequately screen in order to get rid of those ads! and that goes for *all* your site... D.

Sunday, September 5, 2010

(craigslist's role in increased prostitution/child trafficking) I just don't get Jeff Jarvis...

MORE: I don't know if I should be surprised... Jeff Jarvis didn't post my comment (comment number 423908): on the one hand, he's never acted coardish towards me in the past (maybe I didn't give him much of a chance, I don't know, just posted lightly on his blog few years back), on the other hand Craig probably leaned on him as usual... D.

re: "The argument has been that craigslist ads are used to serve human sex trafficking. Except craigslist has been openly and consistently helping police in their efforts to arrest traffickers"

Jeff, I'm trying to understand you but I'm having a really hard time...

Just what do you think is the percentage of traffickers that *can* be apprehended? The police has very limited resources...I somehow doubt you don't know that.

How does the minute percentage of those apprehended compare with the increase in such crimes due to the ease of accomplishing the crime with craigslist's help (the most efficient known way to advertise -- 3 times more efficient than places like backpage)?

Providing a very efficient place for initiating prostitution (including trafficking of children) is almost surely dramatically increasing the amount of overall harm. Generally, the harder it is to commit the crime, the less of it actually happens... none of this is rocket science.


P.S. are the other places just as responsible? absolutely... just for significantly less added harm (perhaps not for lack of trying, they are just nowhere as efficient); as with most harms, the police/government just can't uniformly go after all of them, so the bigger fish are rightly getting the most attention (craigslist's feedback forum used to tell craigslisters who were complaining that their ad got removed while others also in violation remained on the site that if you are speeding you should expect a ticket even if not everybody gets a ticket -- it's funny how they forget when they are the ones speeding three times faster than anybody else around). D.

Friday, September 3, 2010

unlisted craigslist erotic/adult services review forum???

MORE: Anderson Cooper didn't care to "sit down with Craig/Jim" (left Amber Lyons finish the reporting on the evening of September 6th); did they think he was going to jump to "the honor" or... something else?; there were some articles suggesting Craig/Jim were looking for a way to meet Anderson *socially*... ("for coffee")... Anderson is believed to be gay but, unlike Craig, he gives no reason for making his sexuality known (no publicly known girlfriend or the like); on the other hand, posts claiming Craig is gay still frequently appear on craigslist...

the latest:
didn't know it existed! (link of

I guess nothing should surprise...(certainly looks like good evidence for aiding & abetting -- let me know what you think! it is moderated, certain posts have been deleted by staff showing they KNOW what's going on in there; you can find explicit discussions and suggestions of particular "providers" and there is enough detail to see what the "services" are (e.g.); there used to be posted pictures, one poster says...)

thanks to slinkybender!: "They have, in fact, explicitly created "secret" discussion forums for johns on their website -- unadvertised locations set aside from among the 10,000 possible forums available on their servers -- and those forums have been highly active for years."


P.S. if you have time, listen to the short Jim Buckmaster video (just to see how much wholesomeness he is trying to project) and read the Guardian article where he says they make sure all ads are ok and the comments (two from craigslist users are excellent):

"You've agreed to do more screening of ads. Is that going to change the way you run?

JB: In this one category, we are manually screening each ad to ensure that it's fully compliant before it reaches the site. We're not counting the cost there and we're staffing that function as appropriate and as needed to ensure that every ad is fully screened."

No wonder they are pissed with Amber Lyons...and are trying to get someoneELSE to talk to...

Monday, August 23, 2010

craigslist's role in child trafficking

MORE: best (easiest) legal challenge I see at the moment: by claiming to manually screen all ads, craigslist has become "co-author" of these ads and should be held legally responsible for all problem-ads that appear on the site (since it ok-es them before publication) D.

sorry, got delayed...

Much better media coverage than I've ever seen on this topic! and a lot more people with the ability to really do something (e.g. Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley) finally speaking up...

Unfortunately, some people continue to be blinded by craigslist's arguments that they are not ultimately causing the crime so they are thus not responsible.

As with all crimes, willingness to commit the crime is not enough for the crime to actually happen -- the opportunity must also be there. And the greater the opportunity, the more potential crime becomes actual crime. While craigslist is not causing the willingness to exploit children, the existence of it's "adult services" does appear to dramatically increase the opportunity of committing the crime by providing a very effective advertising platform (much more effective than any other known alternative). Getting rid of the "adult section" would not mean there would be no more child trafficking but it may well mean that there would be a whole lot less of it...

If "adult services" MUST exist (and it is a very difficult argument to make that providing an advertising section for the extremely limited situation when "adult ads" may truly be harmless and legal should win out given the reality of increased child trafficking), it could only be justified if screening would be without reproach. This appears to be hardly the case... It's hard to see how lawyers trained to manually screen each ad (3rd paragraph) could accept as many blatant ads observers have found on the site every time they looked... Just how many lawyers were employed? Hardly enough given the job at hand, it appears... Just how much has craigslist spent from the tens of millions it's been collecting in fees from "adult services" ads on combating the problem? an insignificant amount, it appears...


P.S. worst problem I see at the moment: some well meaning people with the ability to effect change are not keeping child trafficking separate from prostitution in general (I do believe both are a real problem but child trafficking is by far the worst of the two and should be given priority)D.

Tuesday, August 10, 2010

(child sex trafficking) will be posting a critique of Jim Buckmaster's response, shortly...


... might take a week or so... Delia

P.S. key issue: they just don't seem to be monitoring! (which they claim they Amber Lyon was right on the money!) D.

Sunday, July 25, 2010

[Seth Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there...":


in case you are reading this, I continue to be stupefied by the way search engines work (google in particular); I thought I was doing everything wrong! I mean... I only post when I feel like it and that ends up leaving weeks if not months with no posts, so how could a post on this blog (an off-topic one at that) rank so high in the google search? (middle of the 2nd page of hits) there must have been loads of people who wrote about the zittrain-berkman-brill-thing! what's really crazy is that *zittain's answer*, addressing Brill's story, ranks *lower* than the entry on my blog... let me know what you think if you get a chance! Thanks! D.

Delia: will be away for a few days; any further comments will be posted here (in the body of the entry) -- will be back Sunday night! D.


Richard, I think you are one of the people that could do a really good job at this!



EVEN MORE Delia: the worst situation that I can imagine is that it might have really been a *quid pro quo* (hefty funding for academic appointment) and Lessig got the 1st endowed professorship just to mask this exchange. Daniel Golden's "The Price of Admission; How America's Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges -- and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates" gives good background on how something like this might have worked out. D.

MORE: Seth's follow up post

Of course Zittrain is not naive - I'd say he's one of the most sophisticated and savvy people I've ever met. And someone does not become a professor at Harvard AND Oxford without being able to swim with sharks in some deep very waters indeed. His personal story would be interesting in a certain way, but Emily Brill didn't tell it. The article had much of a petty individual scandal tone against him, which I don't think was justified - and parts of that didn't even seem to be accurate. Again, the broader institutional issues, mentioned later on, are a different matter. Those are orders of magnitude more meaningful.

The fact that the Berkman Center gets plenty of publicity doesn't translate into support for a thorough analysis of it. Remember, journalism is basically gone - it's been replaced by attention-mongering, err, the link economy.

Posted by Seth Finkelstein to craigslist criticism at July 26, 2010 2:05 AM

I agree that she didn't do a very good job at it (and already said that) but I don't know about having necessarily been against him *personally*, rather than against his involvement with the Berkman center.

She *had* to say how she stumbled on the issues in the first place and that was as much of her own personal story (if you want to look at it that way) as it was Zittrain's. To me, her story sounds pretty mundane, I just don't see the scandal in it... : she applied for a job, was invited to sit in one of his classes and started wondering...

I wouldn't be surprised if she lost her chance to get the job once she started asking Zittrain questions about the inside workings of the Berkman center (things like where does the funding come from, which I believe she was entitled to know so she could make an informed decision on whether or not to accept the job if offered). And this is definitely relevant to the story that's worth telling.

Zittrain is by no means dumb but I'm not convinced that he would have become a Harvard Law Professor and had the academic career he ended-up having if he wouldn't have been a major player in setting up the Berkman center. One of the things to look into would be whether or not he had personal ties to the Berkmans and might have talked them into donating money to Harvard for this particular project. I suspect that was the case... I also suspect the Berkmans ended-up giving even *more* money to Harvard for other things and Harvard was grateful for Zitttrain's helping out with fund raising.

And yeah, the institutional level *is* the ultimate concern but it wouldn't have gotten to that point would Harvard had not allowed the Berkman center to be created in the first place. The way it *looks like* to me (and, of course, these are ALL just *my suspicions* -- it would have to be all checked) is that Harvard allowed itself to be corrupted and Zittrain was the one who ultimately made it happen.


P.S. I meant to say that *Emily Brill's story* got plenty of publicity (not just the Berkman center). So now plenty of people are aware of the issues. I believe there are still some decent journalists out there although their numbers do seem to be dwindling. D.


I agree, there's a story, but I'd say Jonathan Zittrain ended up personally scapegoated for what's broad institutional sins. The problem is that the overall story is a lot of research and work, plus one would have to deal with the inevitable push-back from the Berkman Center and allies. It's not an easy topic to write about.

Posted by Seth Finkelstein to craigslist criticism at July 25, 2010 1:31 PM


The way I see it, Zittrain MUST have known what he was doing... Heck, he co-founded the monstrosity and served as it's 1st director from 1997 to 2000! Only *after* that period was he made Assistant Professor of Law at Harvard. So you gotta wonder if that was his ticket to getting an academic appointment at Harvard Law School.

The other major players in this (Nesson -- the other co-founder and Lessig -- who held the 1st endowed professorship) were already established academically prior to their involvement with the "academic based" advocacy center.

I do believe this is a story well worth telling and I'd be really surprised if Zittrain would show to have been merely in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I suspect that as time passed there were some significant changes made to counter the appearance (and the actual wrong doing) related to the center. And yeah... it wouldn't be easy and anybody even remotely associated with it would probably try to stop it/detract from it/etc.-- doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth doing! on the contrary...

And I do hope somebody will do a great job at it! (it's got plenty of publicity -- there must be *somebody* out there willing and able to do it)


Saturday, July 24, 2010

(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there is a big story there!

STILL MORE: Seth's comment

EVEN MORE of my old thoughts...

MORE (more on my OLD thoughts on the issue)

... and no, Emily Brill didn't do a very good job on it (more like a good start --just in terms of *ideas*, as far as where the *issues* are --> she should have dug much deeper! [my casual take on the topic quite a while back]; {also related]


P.S. I would expect things to have changed by now, at least I *hope* they did... but there is probably still plenty to be concerned about and it would thus make a story worth telling! D.

Friday, July 9, 2010

[craigslist criticism] New comment on (trafficking in women) real life protests against ....

MORE: Thanks, Katherine! yeah... there is a lot more to say about this than I allowed myself time for... ok! I'll have to elaborate now:) As a first event of its kind (as far as I'm aware of) the fact that it made an impact is significant. These are not easy things to implement, *in general*, (especially on a very limited budget, as it appears to have been) and they had some serious added-on difficulties.

You picked-on the most significant one I believe, the fact that not all relevant orgs joined the protest -- that not everybody believes craigslist should necessarily do away with its "erotic/adult" sections. As I've said on this blog, I personally believe they should definitely give it a try! And as long as they don't, I have a hard time believing they could possibly care...

Having said that, it would have been much more valuable as public discourse if these orgs would have come to the event *anyways* and explained the reasons for their dissension but my feeling is that they didn't want in any way to undermine organizations with which they share so many core principles.

They probably also felt that it was a mistake to lump together the issue of human trafficking in minors with the issue of *prostitution in general*, not because they believe prostitution can be a good thing... but because doing so diffuses the focus from the primary concern.

I personally believe prostitution is a bad choice, regardless of the circumstance because it is fraught with inherent risks extremely difficult to control and also negatively impacts other people than the two making "the deal" (even in the cases when it is "consensual," and I seriously doubt it is *ever* truly mutually consensual when it ultimately comes down to it... and not only on the side of the women, plenty of men appear to have something at least resembling an addiction, shelling out money that they can ill it can actually be predatory on the "career" prostitute's side)

But yeah... it would have helped to keep these things separate and I trust that the orgs will learn from this experience and have a bigger event and a bigger impact next time. Still, as far as I'm concerned, it was not bad for a start!


P.S. sorry to hear about the bad personal experiences you had, hopefully everything will be better next time! D.

katherine. has left a new comment on your post "(trafficking in women) real life protests against ...":

it was an interesting event...but disappointing.

my take on the Craigslist Protest

Tuesday, June 29, 2010

(trafficking in women) real life protests against craigslist start


MORE: protest against craigslist certainly made an impact! Craig&Co painted over the "craigslist" sign...was that in shame? ( about 15 hours ago via web

STILL MORE: misguided anti-protest against craigslist; twitter: sorry but the safe thing to do is get *out* of this business! you should be able to get help but NOT to keep doing it... 3 minutes ago via web

EVEN MORE: twitter: (trafficking in women) finally! major news outlet coverage: CBS5/ BCN( Protesters Slam Craigslist's 'Adult Services'~D. 7 minutes ago

UPDATE:(trafficking in women) real life protest against craigslist garners even more support -- Congresswoman Jackie Speier among them

twitter: (trafficking in women) real life protest against craigslist garners even more support;e.g.Congresswoman Jackie Speier ( less than 20 seconds ago via web

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/07/01 21:32:42
Subject: Re: Leading Human Rights Groups To Protest Craigslist HQ's on 7/08/10: For Immediate Release


July 1, 2010


NORMA RAMOS, Esq., (212) 643-9895 and MELISSA FARLEY, Ph.D., (415) 922-4555
On July 8, 2010 at noon the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW), Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) and our over 75 Co-Sponsors will protest Craigslist's facilitation of sex trafficking at Craigslist’s office, 1381 9th Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94122.

A large portion of Craigslist’s profits come from the sale of commercial sexual exploitation, much of it trafficked, all of it prostituted. Craigslist normalizes and facilitates online pimping - providing an outlet and incentive, for sex traffickers to reach buyers of human beings. “By providing traffickers and johns with a virtual red light district, Craigslist is aiding, abetting and enormously profiting from sex trafficking,” says Norma Ramos, Executive Director of CATW.

Our protest is co-sponsored by 75 leading human rights and anti-trafficking organizations and prominent individuals including Equality Now, End Child Prostitution and Trafficking (ECPAT-USA), Center for World Indigenous Studies, Soroptimists International of the Americas, Nevada Coalition Against Sexual Violence, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, Asian Americans for Community Involvement, and Gloria Steinem, author Victor Malarek, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and Congresswoman Jackie Speier.

Sex trafficking is fueled by the demand for prostitution along with impunity for its buyers. According to Melissa Farley, author of 20 research articles on trafficking for prostitution, “Today, a majority of men buy sex online from women or children many of whom are trafficked or controlled by third parties. Craigslist mainstreams prostitution as ‘Adult Services’. This protest exposes these ads for what they really are: the sale of sexual exploitation, paid rape, child abuse, and trafficking.”

Craigslist has defied and defeated the efforts of Attorneys General, a high profile lawsuit and members of Congress who have tried to put an end to their facilitation of sex trafficking. Despite evidence of criminal activity associated with its website, Craigslist remains above the law. “We are sending a message to Craigslist from the human rights community that by hosting these ads they are partially responsible for much of the rank exploitation that is human trafficking,” says Ms. Ramos.

We are calling upon Craigslist to close the euphemistically named “Adult Services” section of their website, set a sex industry-free standard which would help to eliminate human trafficking on the internet.

Speakers include: Joy Friedman, Breaking Free; Glenda Hope, Executive Director, SafeHouse San Francisco for Homeless Women Escaping Prostitution; Victor Malarek, Author/Activist; Aaron Cohen, Author/Activist; Terria Joseph, Actor.

For a complete list of the 75 Co-Sponsors who have joined CATW and PRE visit our websites at and

EVEN MORE: twitter: (trafficking in women) real life protests against craigslist start ( Gloria Steinem, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney ~D. 1 minute ago via web

MORE: there have already been some online (on social sites, such as twitter) but this is the first one in person that I'm aware of... hopefully it will make some serious impact and, unless craigslist truly changes, it will not be the last! ~Delia

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/06/29 21:52:48
Subject: Re: Craigslist Protest - Join Us

Dear D,

Below and attached you will find an announcement regarding a protest the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) is organizing in partnership with Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) in front of Craigslist’s headquarters in San Francisco. Crrently, the protest is co-sponsored by 66 leading anti-trafficking organizations and prominent individuals including Gloria Steinem, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and author Victor Malarek.

I thought you may find it interesting given your blog, Craigslist Criticism. Feel free to post our announcement on your blog as well. Best, Elaine

Elaine L. Afanador

Executive Assistant

Coalition Against Trafficking in Women

P (212) 643-9895

F (212) 643-9896

Join Us On Thursday, July 8,2010

To Protest Craigslist at their San Francisco Headquarters

The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) in partnership with Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) and other co-sponsors will be holding a protest in front of Craigslist Headquarters in San Francisco on July 8th to bring attention to Craigslist’s facilitation of and profiting from sex trafficking. “Craigslist continues to cynically profit by functioning as an online pimp,” says Norma Ramos, Executive Director of CATW. “Craigslist is the new stroll where pimps traffic, johns buy and Craigslist profits,” says Melissa Farley, Executive Director, PRE.

Craigslist is projected to realize a 22% increase in revenue - an estimated $36 million in 2010 - largely attributable to its functioning as a virtual red light district for pimps/traffickers and johns. Craigslist displays a reckless disregard for human rights by increasingly becoming a part of the sex industry. Craigslist could act to create a sex trafficking free internet by no longer hosting prostitution ads and thereby setting an industry standard.

We invite you to join CATW, PRE and our co-sponsors who include: Gloria Steinem, Breaking Free,Equality Now, A Call to Men, End Child Prostitution and Trafficking (ECPAT-USA), and many others at our protest to hold Craigslist accountable for facilitating and profiting from the rank exploitation of others.

Speakers Include:

Joy Friedman, Women’s Program Manager, Breaking Free
* Glenda Hope, Executive Director, SafeHouse San Francisco for Homeless Women Escaping Prostitution
* Victor Malarek, Author/Activist, The Natashas and The Johns
* Aaron Cohen, Author/Activist, Slave Hunter
* Terria Joseph, Actor
When: Thursday, July 8, 2010

Where: Craigslist Headquarters

1381 9th Avenue (Between Judah and Irving Streets)

San Francisco, CA 94122

Time: 12:00 – 2:00 PM

Co-Sponsors Include: Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney (D-NY), Center for World Indigenous Studies (Mexico/USA), Men Stopping Violence, Dayton Human Trafficking Accords, UNANIMA International, Aboriginal Women’s Action Network (Canada), The Temple Committee Against Human Trafficking (Canada), The Barnaba Institute, Global Centurion, National Organization For Women - NYC (NOW-NYC), Kathleen Barry, Robin Morgan, Embrace Dignity Campaign (South Africa), The Rebecca Project for Human Rights, Stop Porn Culture, Media Watch, Pacific Alliance to Stop Slavery, Girl Fest Hawaii, Public Good Project, Children’s Civil Rights Union, California Survivors of Craigslist Trafficking, Chab Dai USA, Veronica’s Voice, Women’s Justice Center, LOOKBOTHWAYS, California Against Slavery, A Girl Like Me Campaign, Nomi Network, Women’s Global Resource and Development Initiative, Minorities and Survivors Improving Empowerment (MASIE), Live2Free, Lydia Today Foundation, Love146, Nevada Coalition Against Sexual Violence, Nevada Coalition Against Sex Trafficking, National Dominican Women's Caucus, Because Justice Matters, New York League of Puerto Rican Women, Inc. (NYLPRW), Soroptimist International of the Americas, Women's Support Project (Scotland), Revolt: Fight To End The Commercial Sex Trade, Exploited Voices now Educating (EVE), My Sisters's Place, Inc (Canada), What If It Were Your Daughter/Silver Braid, Sex Industry Survivors, REED (Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity) (Canada), Apne Aap (India), Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution, Bamboo Bridges, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter (Canada), Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Abolish Slavery, Mrs. Gingerbread Inc.,, Asian Americans for Community Involvement (AACI), Feministiskt Initiativ (Sweden), Raise The Bar Productions, EAVES (UK), TFK Ventures, LLC., Setting the Captives Free Ministries (Canada)…

* Please help get the word out by e-mailing this notice to your contact list.

Saturday, June 26, 2010

(comic & sad) Jim Buckmaster wants to shut up researchers

twitter: underage -Schaphiro group publishes results of study that *dare* put craigslist in a bad light Jim Buckmaster is pissed! 7 minutes ago via web

... if they find out anything that puts craigslist in a bad light? can he truly be that dense...? apparently, so -- he wants them to *cease and desist!* using craigslist's name when presenting the results of the under age prostitution research they did on a number of sites including craigslist

thankfully, the Schaphiro group didn't give in to craigslist's bullying and published results of the study that *dare* put craigslist in a bad light: "Craigslist is by far the most efficient medium for Johns"

Friday, June 4, 2010

meaninglessly high search numbers for craigslist

EVEN MORE: twitter

@jzawodn jeremy, was there something you wanted to say or... should I take it as no comment? ~Delia re: ( about 11 hours ago via web

@jzawodn re: Jeremy, you asked me to expand on what I had originally wrote in that entry and that's what I did (MORE).. 15 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: the main paragraph did nothing but fully explain what I had already written (MORE)... 14 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: Jim' s entry on the craigslistblog was what prompted the whole issue so I felt I had to address it... MORE 14 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: I did not necessarily expect you to address what Jim said, although it is definitely related; no big deal! 15 minutes ago via web

twitter: (craigslist search) discussion with craigslist's Jeremy Zawodny --craigslist criticism blog ( feel free to join! ~Delia half a minute ago via web

MORE: email exchanges published with the permission of craigslist' Jeremy Zawodny

As far as I can see, a comparison of search providers based on the number of search inquiries only makes sense if search efficiency is comparable. I don't believe that is the case: craigslist search is much more inefficient than google search, for instance, even when just searching craigslist -- because there are much fewer parameters available for the craigslist search when compared with google advanced search (you can't search in more than one location, for instance, even if you'd be willing to drive well outside of your own city and plenty of people do), one needs to perform a lot more search inquiries to get the same information that could be obtained through just one search using google. And plenty of information that google easily gives through a single inquiry could never be obtained by using craigslist search.

My suspicion has been that craigslist keeps its search (and the rest of the site) antiquated, barely changing things, at least in part because it makes the numbers look better, it looks like there is a lot more activity on the site and in fact there is, it's just that it is meaningless activity... frustrated people spending way more time on getting things done than they would really need to be spending.


P.S. also, I have no idea where Jim Buckmaster got his numbers and have no way of checking as long as he gives no references, the march 2010 report he refers to looks very different than his numbers... I find it strange that he gives no link to the source:

I also find it deceiving that he claims Comscore has ranked craigslist number 5 when, apparently, it has done nothing of the kind -- the designation is really Jim's... re: "Here are the top 5 search providers, as ranked by Comscore for March 2010" D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/06/05 21:27:24
Subject: Re: Re: [craigslist criticism] New comment on meaninglessly high search numbers for craigslist.



On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:27:13PM -0400, dperiod wrote:

re: Can you expand on that a bit? Or email me:



sure... is it ok to post our email exchanges in the body of my blog entry you commented on? ~Delia

( twitter

Jeremy: my impression is that there is a whole lot of useless searching on craigslist (which meaninglessly bumps up the numbers) because the search function continues to be archaic and inefficient (apparently on purpose)


Peninsula Congresswoman Jackie Speier, local bay area politician, moved to action

STILL MORE: craigslist grantees seem to be "paying back"; the issue is facilitation -is there MORE crime as a result of craigslist? 9 minutes ago via web

EVEN MORE: (twitter) sounds a lot like the advice I gave Jim --good to see it is taken seriously, especially since for Jim it appears to have fallen on deaf ears 19 minutes ago via web

MORE: "Jackie Speier is also asking the House Judiciary Committee to hold a hearing on how Web sites like Craigslist are being used to facilitate criminal activity."(2nd paragraph) twitter

"Peninsula Congresswoman Jackie Speier [will] ask U.S. Attorney Joseph Russoniello to help San Francisco’s Craigslist avoid the facilitation of prostitution and human trafficking'.(lasty paragraph) twitter

Thursday, May 20, 2010

is craigslist's adult section much more effective then backpage etc.?

MORE: twitter: Trouteaud: "Craigslist [adult] ads received three times the response of similar ads posted with a competitor, Backpage" 4 minutes ago via web

re: prior; Trouteaud: 47 percent still wanted to proceed even after learning the girls were minors -Schapiro Group study of craigslist adult 3 minutes ago via web (5th paragraph from bottom)

that has been my belief for a long time and looks like they are coming up with evidence: Alex Trouteaud "Craigslist ads received three times the response of similar ads posted with a competitor, Backpage"(4th paragraph from bottom)

Tuesday, May 11, 2010

is Jim Buckmaster for real? giving another try...

MORE: and again, Jim Buckmaster did not post my comment (although he already posted a pretty much random one -- much less relevant -- and submitted after mine) -- I can pretty much ignore his stuff from now on (seems to be B.S.) D.



You just *can't* keep any of that money and expect people to believe that you are honest or that you care about the very serious problems you talk about here -- you must realize this. I don't know whose idea it really was, but the AGs agreed with the charging of the fee and you publicly vowed not to profit from it. As long as you keep your word, the impasse should be solvable. I would just hand over all those profits to the AGs and tell them to do as they will with it! because you have trouble giving it away as was planned and do not want to keep any of it.

I would also ask them to get together with the orgs they deem pertinent and come up with ways to solve the problem and offer honest cooperation. If they say, you should shut down the adult section and you believe it would really make no real difference -- give it a try! Shut down the erotic section in one location where it has high activity at the moment and see what happens -- are those ads truly migrating to personals in mass as you appear to believe would be the case or only a small part of them do? Given that some may suspect conflict of interest, make sure you allow a neutral party to do the determination of what is really going on and make that public regardless of their findings.

As long as there is a genuine desire to solve this problem, I see no reason why things could not drastically improve.


is Craig Newmark honestly asking for suggestions?

Twitter: Craig Newmark: what should craigslist do?do NOTprofit from erotic/adult/prostitution as promised hand over all$ to AGs 9 minutes ago via web

..and let them do as they will with it! let them get together with the relevant orgs and figure out what should be done and go along with it 8 minutes ago via web

Wednesday, April 28, 2010

Jim Buckmaster blasts poor Brad Stone of NYT

MORE: KATHARINE MIESZKOWSKI Nonprofit to Craigslist: Keep Your Money ( yep! that's what I thought... ( 10:12 PM May 2nd via web


NYT's Brad Stone dares look at it from both sides *for once*&Jim Buckmaster blasts him for it -prior suck-ups forgotten 17 minutes ago via web

ok, Jim! so the prostitution $ doesn't go in the Craigslist Charitable Fund or *does* it? -grantees would need to know 12 minutes ago via web

..does Jim Buckmaster think people are going to believe that craigslist is making that kind of $ from barely legal massage ads and the like? 10 minutes ago via web

or that the fact that others are doing it also is a legitimate excuse? he would do well to remember the CL feedback speeding ticket analogy 3 minutes ago via web

Monday, April 26, 2010

yet again, is craigslist facilitating prostitution?


MORE: Twitter yet again, is craigslist facilitating prostitution? let me know what you think! ~Delia 7:09 PM Apr 26th via web

also are Craig Newmark & Jim Buckmaster profiting from prostitution although they vowed not to keep the money? certainly looks like it! ~D. 7:15 PM Apr 26th via web

again, NYT's Brad Stone comes up with a "friendly"-towards-craigslist title "Sex Ads Seen Adding Revenue to Craigslist" -- really, now? that's a fair characterization of the issue? *lol* still, with some exceptions(e.g. the number of places where craigslist is charging has been creeping up for a long time -- you *have to* say that so people can understand what's going on) he somehow manages to give a fairly balanced account. But the ending paragraph is just bizarre... looks like he just has to compliment Craig& Jim somehow and just doesn't care that it's awkward at best...


Wednesday, April 14, 2010

trolls or "truth fighters"?


Stowe, (11th comment)

It was a short comment -- that's all I had time for. I really thought the first paragraph made my point (the P.S. was just meant to give a case very in point of just how doubtful it is that a system of figuring out trustworthiness would succeed in practice). And I didn't say true trolls should be tolerated, just that the *focus* should be on getting useful comments. As far as I'm concerned somebody who has serious trust issues of his own has no standing preaching to people about trust. And I don't see how pointing out serious documented concerns (I gave the direct links so people can see what I'm talking about) could constitute personal attack. You should always be able to point-out the truth -- how could anybody feel attacked by it, unless they are hiding from it...


P.S. I gotta go... will check tonight (Eastern time) if you'd like to continue this -- take care! D.

MORE: Twitter: @ stoweboyd trolls or "truth fighters"? re: Craig Newmark: Who do you trust? your blog -couple of issues, left comment less than 20 seconds ago via web


The real problem is that just as somebody's "terrorist" often turns out to be a freedom fighter, "truth fighters" online are often labeled as trolls. I think the worry is misplaced. People should be preoccupied with getting as many useful comments as possible, rather than making sure there is no barking going on... At best, comments are pointing out fundamental flaws and truly helping out the author (if the pursuit of truth is really the ultimate objective) and at worst they are just barks that are bound to die down relatively quickly.


P.S. I seriously doubt a technological way of figuring out trustworthiness would really work in practice. I think it's telling that somebody like Craig Newmark has no problem complaining about trust issues and being taken seriously, especially in the wake of the ebay v. craigslist suit. It's hard to see how he did not abuse craigslisters' trust by having them believe he did not financially benefit from the ebay deal (to the tune of about $10 million, as it turns out) or when he vowed ebay didn't get more than 25% of craigslist.

Tuesday, April 13, 2010

(aside) Arriana Huffington wants nothing controversial

MORE: twitter: @geekguidebook ( re: Huffington bad idea to lump vile comments together with merely controversial ones @ariannahuff ~D. 2 minutes ago via web in reply to geekguidebook

(comic, prior) Huffington: “There is a younger generation that doesn’t feel the same need for privacy” --> hopefully, they'll grow up! :) D. 3 minutes ago via web

Hi, Jeff!


What's the point of putting the info out there if you are going to lump vile comments together with merely controversial ones, the way Arriana Huffington does (quote in your article). If there is nothing controversial about what you are writing, it's most likely a boring article and thus a poor choice in the first place...


P.S. (comic) re: Huffington: “There is a younger generation that doesn’t feel the same need for privacy” --> hopefully, they'll grow up! :) D.

Sunday, April 11, 2010

(aside) (iPhone; iPad etc.) Dan Gillmor praises Jonathan Zittrain

FINAL: #comment 1851

as usual, Seth's voice would have balanced this entry but you appear to have driven him away... Jon left much earlier and I will be on my way also... bye!


P.S. submitted a comment to your iPhone entry (#1821)-- appears to be counted but not posted (no big deal, I would have left anyways) D.

EVEN MORE: Twitter (aside) (iPhone; iPad etc.) Dan Gillmor praises Zittrain, apparently without noticing the contradiction ( any opinions? 2 minutes ago via web

MORE: not sure if I did something wrong when trying to post it... will see..

...apparently without noticing the contradiction



re: "The iPhone, locked down from the beginning, started Apple down a road I cannot support"

and... neither do you have one as your own cellphone... good! I can believe that what you are saying is what you actually believe.. which is the 1st step in being taken seriously -- not the case with Jonathan Zittrain who uses an iPhone *himself* but would have us all believe... *we* shouldn't!


speak now or forever hold your ... thoughts!

MORE: Twitter: getting terribly bored waiting for a resolution to the ebay v. craigslist suit, which should really be the end of my trying to figure it out 6:11 PM Apr 10th via web
I don't expect to be doing this much longer -- can't believe it's been dragging on for this long so if you'd like to have some of your own thoughts about this on this blog, whoever you might be, you may want to hurry up and let me know!(please email instead of posting comments) 'cause when it's's done! (there is a chinese guy--or gal?-- that's still trying to get some comments on my numanuma blog (thenumanumathing), *years* after I closed it... ~Delia

Thursday, April 8, 2010

(aside) zittrain's doom & gloom technique still working for him...

EVEN MORE: (aside) (comic) "We should focus on preserving our freedoms" but NOT by stopping to use these offending devices, just by whining about them! less than 20 seconds ago via web

MORE: I was going to leave a comment for Nick Carr but he makes people register to do that... nope! I'm not going to do that -- unnecessary hassle given that commenters are basically doing a favor by going to the trouble of posting comments....

will see if he gets it by twitter

(aside) @roughtype (Nick carr) @zittrain's (Jonathan Zittrain) doom & gloom technique still working for him... ( ~Delia half a minute ago via web


zittrain's "the sky is falling" arguments re: everything "i" (iPhone, iPad etc.) would be much easier to take seriously if it did not appear that he doesn't really buy his own arguments (e.g. by his own acknowledgment, uses an iPhone himself).


p.s. seems to continue Lessig's doom & gloom technique, mostly for attention grabbing purposes... D.

Wednesday, March 24, 2010

does facebook facilitate the spread of syphilis, does craigslist facilitate all sort of crimes?


@roncallari thanks for the link, Ron! same issue: only thing correct is that the guy did not prove it but it is definitely a possibility ~D. 2 minutes ago via web in reply to roncallari


sorry about the delay...

re: "no one is saying that Facebook actually causes syphilis, but they are saying that it is to blame for people getting syphilis, in the same way that people blame Craigslist for other people’s homes being broken into or whatever the case may be."

Matthew, as I said in my 1st comment:

"Quite possibly, Facebook may facilitate the spread of syphilis (and thus cause the observed “rise in syphilis” like the actual Telegraph title says) and Craigslist may well facilitate killings, as well as all sort of other crimes."

this is the issue that needs to be addressed ... but you *can't* even get to it if you fall in the trap of Craig Newmark and similar and believe that regardless of what the facts show, facebook/craigslist/etc. just can't have anything to do with the fourfold rise in syphilis, for instance... so all that's left is to blame it all on "human nature" and watch all sort of ills go through the roof without even attempting to do anything about it!

compare that with actually acknowledging what's going on and taking measures to keep things under control -- and it's no trivial matter (peoples' lives are often at stake!)


P.S. already said everything I had to say on this -- take are! D.


you are welcome!

Again, as far as I can see, you are only correct on the fact that based on the info presented *we don't know*... not that there is no evidence (they listed plenty of it! it's just not conclusive) or it *couldn't* be the case that say, if Facebook went down for a significant length of time, the rates of syphilis would go down to a quarter of what they are while Facebook is operational, all other things being equal.

And of course, you can never prove 100% that all other things were equal but the Telegraph article would have been much stronger if they would have shown that they checked for the other major things that could have caused the number to go up fourfold and none were found.


P.S. I'm not buying the argument that it's like the phone or the automobile is somehow directly (physically) causing syphilis -- how silly, that's not what the argument is about at all... Although plenty of people have fallen for that and other of Craig Newmark's ridiculous PR, that's just a means of causing confusion and evading the problem: it's distracting from the fact that the use of particular phones and/or automobiles (like the use of Facebook or craigslist) can easily cause an increase in serious crimes. And there are things that could and should be done about it.

To stay with this analogy, most people don't really doubt the fact that forbidding the use of the phone for texting while driving an automobile reduces vehicular manslaughter and putting this into law makes sense. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous argument that the phone and/or automobile are killing people... D.

let's give Mathew Ingram another try:


I'm not sure if you misrepresented the article on purpose or simply misread it but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt. It talks about "rising" and "resurgence" not direct causation (so your title is either a mistake or intentionally misleading). And no, it does not prove it but the problem with the sort of argument you are making is that it implies NO correlation just because none was properly found -- that simply means we don't know! Not that it's not true, that it *couldn't* be true... Quite possibly, Facebook may facilitate the spread of syphilis (and thus cause the observed "rise in syphilis" like the actual Telegraph title says) and Craigslist may well facilitate killings, as well as all sort of other crimes. Any casual peruser of craigslist would have to be seriously dimwitted not to realize there are plenty of illegal things listed and it is at best unclear that craigslist is doing what it should to prevent serious crimes.


Thursday, March 18, 2010

(comic) According to Mathew Ingram, Craig Newmark is a trust expert!

EVEN MORE: So Mathew Ingram "forgot" to post my comment -- is he hoping his readers would just eat up his dubious interview? the sad part is that *plenty* of them will; for the rest, he is embarrassing himself and he must know it...D.

MORE: Twitter: (comic) According to Mathew Ingram, Craig Newmark is a trust expert! 4 minutes ago via web

Good God, Mathew! (counted but not published at this point, will check later)

after the ebay v. craigslist suit (see the AuctionBytes coverage if you haven't already) you use Craig Newmark as a *trust* expert? *lol* Sorry but I can only laugh ~Delia

Friday, February 19, 2010

(aside) NYT: should readers' needs and wants matter?


sorry about the delay...

Seth, I see you are tilting at windmills as usual :) As far as I can tell, you are never going to get those things acknowledged... (mostly because they are true... *lol*)


I'm not sure if you grossly distorted what I said on purpose but it certainly looks like it...

here is what I said:

"If the NYT ran a poll that showed that *the vast majority* of readers would prefer that info to be segregated somewhere where it could be easily avoided, would that matter to you?

I think it should!" {emphasis just here to make my point]

and here is what you responded to Seth who brought up my post:

"If the NYT doesn’t obey *a small number* of self-deluded readers in this case" {my emphasis]

if at this point, you truly believe that it is laughable that the needs and wants of the users should be taken into consideration (that if the vast majority of long term readers would rather be able to read the paper version of the NYT without giving up the ability to watch the Olympic games without already knowing who won, the almighty NYT should just decline it...), I fear for the well being of your new project (you should have learned this basic lesson when your first project failed -- it's prohibitively expensive not to do so).


P.S. and let's not pretend the NYT has no financial interest in this... from the short term business POV, they would *love* to plaster that stuff on the front page asap so they would sell more copies of that particular issue. Horrible idea! if that would be pissing off the loyal long term paper readership...I'm having a hard time believing you just don't get this. And to say they are just doing it in the interest of solid journalism! yeah, right... and I got a bridge to sell you! (in Brooklyn); this is the ind of stuff that has been bothering Seth for a long time -- as it should! D.


I find it strange that you appear to give no consideration to the wants and, arguably, needs, of the people reading the NYT which should ultimately dictate what's being done about issues like this.

If the NYT ran a poll that showed that the vast majority of readers would prefer that info to be segregated somewhere where it could be easily avoided, would that matter to you?

I think it should!


Friday, February 12, 2010

(aside) Dan Gillmor's Mediactive: can advertisers be just... told off?


re: "By all means, tell advertisers (and mean it) that they don’t run the news operations."...

how do you *mean it* if advertising is what makes your business work? (wouldn't they know you are bluffing?) you say yourself the advertisers are the main customers because they are the ones doing the heavy paying; what would stop them from turning around and giving their money to those of your competitors who would accommodate them? unless you are talking about some industry wide pact and aren't those destined to fall apart especially under the kind of serious financial troubles we are seeing today?


Friday, February 5, 2010

the hazards of mixing non-profit with for profit


I'd give the article Seth linked serious thought -- it brings up the kind of issues (IRS issues when you mix non-profit with for profit) I was concerned about when you chose to be adviser for -- could be a dangerous thing to have your name associated with.


(living on craigslist guy) not one of the dummies:)

UPDATE: looks like Jayson changed his mind and posted my comment -- good:) D.

MORE: surprise, surprise... Jayson didn't publish my post; why could that be? is he hoping for direct help with his project from Craig&co? quite possibly...his project (book, movie, whatever he's hoping for) would probably turn out to be much less candid (and truthful, I fear) if he is after getting such endorsement but it *would* give it a serious boost from the POV of marketability, etc. like it happened for "24 hours on craigslist" (which did have Craig in it, briefly...)


P.S. oh well... hopefully he got the hint that his estimate of revenue could be better and what is one way to improve it D.

Hi, Jayson


I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't just fall head over hills in love with craigslist and became fanatical (*literally*) about it and its owners, like way too many journalists have done before you.

If you want to know more about the profits thing, you may want to try your luck with Peter Zollman of the AIM Group -- he may well give you a freebee copy of his report on this (hint: tell him your story and that you have *journalistic* training; may help or hurt to tell him I sent you to him -- I'm not sure:).


P.S. good luck with everything and take care! D.

Friday, January 29, 2010

as I was saying.... some people are so far gone

... it may just be too late

found another one: Howard Owens, and again, not the dumbest person around, *otherwise* :)

Thursday, January 28, 2010

(aside) following on twitter: the truth & the fancy

STILL MORE: twitter: (aside) following on twitter: the truth & the fancy 16 minutes ago from web


thanks for the invitation, Marcelo! but now that I know how you operate … I know you will find my interesting tweets, whether I follow you or not! *lol*


P.S. take care!:) D.


Marcello: fair enough!


P.S. tried to find you on twitter; still don’t know how
many people you follow — nothing came up under your name or the name of the website (strange for someone who wants to reach a whole lot of people…) D.

Hi, Marcelo


How many people do you follow on twitter and do I understand correctly that you don't really read each and all of their twits, you just scan for "interesting stuff," which appears to be mostly leads for people that might be interested in your services and you do this through the search function spending 45 minutes/day at it.

As you describe it, a much larger amount of your time seems to be spent on what appears to be largely self-promotion that you also hope would be interesting to people (*could* be ... although if you do it largely to promote yourself at least some people might regard it as spam).


P.S. I truly don't get it how could people truthfully follow literally thousands of people on twitter (some of them, *tens* of thousands) without doing little else.

P.P.S. Also, I can't see how you could possibly form a meaningful relationship on Twitter (way too restraining) -- it seems to me you'd have to take it to email and/or phone at some point and eventually meet in person, unless all you mean by "relationship" is getting people to try your services. D.

Monday, January 25, 2010

(craigslist ownership) has Craig Newmark sold all his shares in craigslist?

MORE: @zennie62 if you truly believe [Craig Newmark] "is no longer the owner" of craigslist, you are little more than his lousy stenographer -bye! about 23 hours ago from web

was meant as a reply to this

STILL MORE: @elretrovisor right! they haven't figured out how to pocket 80% of the profits and hide that from people (see the ebay v. craigslist suit) 27 minutes ago from web in reply to elretrovisor

EVEN MORE: @zennie62 Zennie, it's kind of late in the game to continue to be duped by Craig... ~Delia ( about 7 hours ago from web in reply to zennie62

MORE: Twitter: (craigslist ownership) has Craig Newmark sold all his craigslist shares or is this just his regular ambiguousBS? ~Delia about 8 hours ago from web

... or is this just his regular ambiguous BS?

"is no longer the owner" (2nd paragraph, end of 2nd to last sentence)

looks like Zennie 62 was very likely duped into thinking that by Craig's seemingly intentional ambiguity and failure to clarify -- I would have expected people to wisen up after the ebay v. craigslist suit exposed plenty of Craig Newmark's secrets but looks like nothing much has changed...


P.S. very likely, Craig is just not the *sole* owner (as in not *the* owner) of craigslist (as, on paper, he has not been in a very long time) but he continues to hold the most shares as the ebay v. craigslist law suit made fairly clear. D.