MORE: trying Twitter again D.
....
that's funny... it's been a couple of days now and it doesn't seem to go away; one of my comic relief entries, that I moved to my craigslist criticism comic relief blog got on Scoble's Ego feed and apparently as a consequence ranks in the 3rd position before The New York Times link... when searching for "craigslist criticism" using Google search. D.
Wednesday, February 18, 2009
Monday, February 16, 2009
comic relief clean-up: ...going, going...
March 6th UPDATE: I went ahead an asked Blogger to review it -- hopefully they don't get any funny ideas (if the do, I have those pages saved so if anybody wants to see them just email and ask for it); it would be nice to keep that blog so I could continue to move posts there (such as this one...) D.
EVEN MORE: what's wrong with Bogger? you can't move posts without being suspected of spamming? this is ridiculous... anyways, I got 20 days to figure out what I want to do... D.
MORE: some posts that are not strictly comic relief but are a bit too far removed will also get the axe so if you are looking for things that may be tangentially relevant just look there D.
...
... it's going to take a while until it will be all gone but I'm working on it; there may or may not be more of that added to my craigslist criticism comic relief blog (seems like a good idea to segregate those posts, wish I thought about it earlier) D.
EVEN MORE: what's wrong with Bogger? you can't move posts without being suspected of spamming? this is ridiculous... anyways, I got 20 days to figure out what I want to do... D.
MORE: some posts that are not strictly comic relief but are a bit too far removed will also get the axe so if you are looking for things that may be tangentially relevant just look there D.
...
... it's going to take a while until it will be all gone but I'm working on it; there may or may not be more of that added to my craigslist criticism comic relief blog (seems like a good idea to segregate those posts, wish I thought about it earlier) D.
Sunday, February 15, 2009
craigslist's transfer of traffic from non-profit to for-profit
MORE: (9th comment) Seth, I think I got it: Craig transfered the traffic from ListFoundation to Craigslist.Inc. (by way of 1010 Cole Street Inc.) D.
...
basically from List Foundation to Craigslist Inc. (by way of 1010 Cole Street inc.)
...
basically from List Foundation to Craigslist Inc. (by way of 1010 Cole Street inc.)
Saturday, February 14, 2009
the facts!
EVEN MORE:
re: [Seth] maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?
I thought of website certificates, which are supposed to list ownership but they probably stop at the name without verifying if it is for profit or non-profit or somebody's hobby or what... that stuff would be really useful, though!
maybe web certificates could be enhanced to include that info
could prevent non-profit poseurs, among other bad things -- when you got to a dot org website that is really a for profit (see craigslist) you'd get a warning!
Delia
(aside) to Craig's credit, he removed to The Isle of Misfits LeFoModerator' post: "Thread marked to deletion" -- had been posted as reply to my thread D.
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116204333)
MORE: alright, looks like this got sidetracked... I'll see if I can salvage it..
(please ignore my prior subthread)
going back to your initial reply:
[Craig would have committed fraud] if "Craig" was carrying on operations which only a not-for-profit could while the company was not categorized as such.
would continuing to have sponsors after becoming a for-profit qualify?
Delia
STILL MORE: (8th comment) hmmm... Seth, I thought I posted another comment but I may not have or something else happened -- anyways it's on my blog if you haven't seen it yet and you'd like to see it D.
EVEN MORE: asked Seth to help, also
You are right to be confused, Seth -- it's far from clear what would have really happened. I'm trying to look into the facts (got delayed by VDay). Here is what I got so far:
http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/facts.html
maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?
Delia
MORE:
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116256664)
and you are right about the ownership for tax purposes (what's the best way to check that for a website?); I do think who registered the websites (and the address given *was* Craig' home address at the time) is a good indication of who the owner was but you are right, it's not proof.
Delia
P.S. talking of IRS issues, if Craig misrepresented what the donors' money were really helping, would the "donors" be in trouble with the IRS (if they thought they were helping a legitimate non-profit but were in fact financing the development of a for profit?) D.
...
yeah, and we need th facts for that... < dperiod > 02/14 09:13:05
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116202566)
(9th comment)
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116183310)
here are the facts as far as I can tell at this point:
-- in 1994, Craig started an email list about events in SF
-- on oct.24th, 1995, he registered the website cnewmark.com, while he was living at 1010 Cole Street in SF
-- in December 1996, the former email list was on the web at cnewmark.com
-- on September 11,1997 he registered both craigslist.com and craigslist.org as websites (the dot.org domain registration is not regulated so although it gives the impression of being a non-profit it needs not be so from the web registration point of view)
-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.com domain at least between Nov. 11th, 1998 and sept. 23rd, 2007
-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.org domain at least between December 2nd,1998 and current time
-- craigslist operated on the listfoundation.org domain at least between December 2nd 1999 and April 28th 2000
-- -- On March 15th,2001 somebody registered listfoundation.org
-- listfoundation.org has changed ownership at least once
-- 0n June 14th, 2001 Craig registerd craigslistfoundation.org, giving the 1010 Cole Street address, his personal residence, for registration purposes
- On September 11th, 2001 (through a for profit called "1010 Cole Street, Inc.") the craigslist.biz domain was registered
--on September 6th,2003, Craig starts using the cnewmark.com domain as his personal blog
-- on May 15th 2008, in their response to an unrelated complaint filed by ebay, Craig and Jim admit that "Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist" (page 2nd,point 7)
Delia
P.S. can't post links; my sources were Alexa.com (for website registration), the wayback machine function of archive.com (for time of websites operation), who.is for info on 1010 Cole Street inc. and ebay's complaint and Craig and Jim's response to that complaint.
P.P.S. it might take a while for me to check for replies; thanks for any ideas! D.
re: [Seth] maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?
I thought of website certificates, which are supposed to list ownership but they probably stop at the name without verifying if it is for profit or non-profit or somebody's hobby or what... that stuff would be really useful, though!
maybe web certificates could be enhanced to include that info
could prevent non-profit poseurs, among other bad things -- when you got to a dot org website that is really a for profit (see craigslist) you'd get a warning!
Delia
(aside) to Craig's credit, he removed to The Isle of Misfits LeFoModerator' post: "Thread marked to deletion" -- had been posted as reply to my thread D.
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116204333)
MORE: alright, looks like this got sidetracked... I'll see if I can salvage it..
(please ignore my prior subthread)
going back to your initial reply:
[Craig would have committed fraud] if "Craig" was carrying on operations which only a not-for-profit could while the company was not categorized as such.
would continuing to have sponsors after becoming a for-profit qualify?
Delia
STILL MORE: (8th comment) hmmm... Seth, I thought I posted another comment but I may not have or something else happened -- anyways it's on my blog if you haven't seen it yet and you'd like to see it D.
EVEN MORE: asked Seth to help, also
You are right to be confused, Seth -- it's far from clear what would have really happened. I'm trying to look into the facts (got delayed by VDay). Here is what I got so far:
http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/facts.html
maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?
Delia
MORE:
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116256664)
and you are right about the ownership for tax purposes (what's the best way to check that for a website?); I do think who registered the websites (and the address given *was* Craig' home address at the time) is a good indication of who the owner was but you are right, it's not proof.
Delia
P.S. talking of IRS issues, if Craig misrepresented what the donors' money were really helping, would the "donors" be in trouble with the IRS (if they thought they were helping a legitimate non-profit but were in fact financing the development of a for profit?) D.
...
yeah, and we need th facts for that... < dperiod > 02/14 09:13:05
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116202566)
(9th comment)
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116183310)
here are the facts as far as I can tell at this point:
-- in 1994, Craig started an email list about events in SF
-- on oct.24th, 1995, he registered the website cnewmark.com, while he was living at 1010 Cole Street in SF
-- in December 1996, the former email list was on the web at cnewmark.com
-- on September 11,1997 he registered both craigslist.com and craigslist.org as websites (the dot.org domain registration is not regulated so although it gives the impression of being a non-profit it needs not be so from the web registration point of view)
-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.com domain at least between Nov. 11th, 1998 and sept. 23rd, 2007
-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.org domain at least between December 2nd,1998 and current time
-- craigslist operated on the listfoundation.org domain at least between December 2nd 1999 and April 28th 2000
-- -- On March 15th,2001 somebody registered listfoundation.org
-- listfoundation.org has changed ownership at least once
-- 0n June 14th, 2001 Craig registerd craigslistfoundation.org, giving the 1010 Cole Street address, his personal residence, for registration purposes
- On September 11th, 2001 (through a for profit called "1010 Cole Street, Inc.") the craigslist.biz domain was registered
--on September 6th,2003, Craig starts using the cnewmark.com domain as his personal blog
-- on May 15th 2008, in their response to an unrelated complaint filed by ebay, Craig and Jim admit that "Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist" (page 2nd,point 7)
Delia
P.S. can't post links; my sources were Alexa.com (for website registration), the wayback machine function of archive.com (for time of websites operation), who.is for info on 1010 Cole Street inc. and ebay's complaint and Craig and Jim's response to that complaint.
P.P.S. it might take a while for me to check for replies; thanks for any ideas! D.
Friday, February 13, 2009
(Seth's back!) did it happen?
you are welcome, Seth! (6th comment)
re: "what does "stepped in" mean? Generally, it's difficult to convert the assets of a nonprofit to those of a for-profit."
it seems to me that the real asset was not monetary (not at the point of transfer); what he really transfered between the companies, from the non-profit to the for profit was *traffic*! -- traffic that the *for profit* craigslist was able to monetize.
here are some things that craigslist did NOT deny: (page 2nd,point 7 of craigslist's response to ebay's complaint) "it is admitted that Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist"
Delia
re: "what does "stepped in" mean? Generally, it's difficult to convert the assets of a nonprofit to those of a for-profit."
it seems to me that the real asset was not monetary (not at the point of transfer); what he really transfered between the companies, from the non-profit to the for profit was *traffic*! -- traffic that the *for profit* craigslist was able to monetize.
here are some things that craigslist did NOT deny: (page 2nd,point 7 of craigslist's response to ebay's complaint) "it is admitted that Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist"
Delia
(would it be legal?) lets see what the craigslist legal forum thinks...
EVEN MORE:
looks like fraud to me (at a minimum) §
according to Peter, it's "bait and switch" §
that's why I put it in quotations...
... I can certainly see Peter's point (as a concept); if intent can be shown, wouldn't the "donors" be defrauded? (they were made to believe they were helping a non-profit and in fact ended up financing a *for profit*?)
MORE: this could turn out to be pretty interesting -- let's hope it stays on topic and does not degenerate in who knows what... D.
....
would this be legal? < dperiod > 02/13 21:07:55
hi, I'm trying to figure out if this would be legal.looks like fraud to me (at a minimum) §
according to Peter, it's "bait and switch" §
that's why I put it in quotations...
... I can certainly see Peter's point (as a concept); if intent can be shown, wouldn't the "donors" be defrauded? (they were made to believe they were helping a non-profit and in fact ended up financing a *for profit*?)
MORE: this could turn out to be pretty interesting -- let's hope it stays on topic and does not degenerate in who knows what... D.
....
would this be legal? < dperiod > 02/13 21:07:55
Peter: "The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.
When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in [and] cashed in."
Delia
P.S. let's set aside whether or not it actually happened (I'm just looking at whether or not it would be legal); thanks! D.
classic craigslist enthusiast...
Tom Harada: "you are the man!(....)it is feels awesome (...) you are just so awesome (...) i should know what awesome is! so awesome..."
sounds like a ditsy cheerleader doesn't it? this guy could definitely use some perspective...
Tom,you may want to tell Michael Halligan or Peter just how awesome craigslist really is... D.
sounds like a ditsy cheerleader doesn't it? this guy could definitely use some perspective...
Tom,you may want to tell Michael Halligan or Peter just how awesome craigslist really is... D.
Wednesday, February 11, 2009
comcast is fine now but Twitter's gone bonkers... lets see what Seth thinks....
Seth, (3rd comment)
I thought you might find this interesting:
Peter (re: craigslist but seems to be relevant to Wikepedia-Wikimedia also, as far as strategy):
"The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.
When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in [and] cashed in."
http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/articles-are-still-disappointing-but.html
If true (and it certainly appears plausible, consistent with ebay's complaint -- it actually makes sense of some information that was rendered incomprehensible apparently by craigslist' editing out of things it didn't want the public to know), doesn't it look like Jimmy is trying to do th same thing, albeit much less successfully?
He's trying to do it *after the fact* -- he did not have a non-profit and a for profit registered at the same time.
Delia
P.S. I was going to try to see if I could get some info regarding what Peter said by using Twitter, both the actual things that happened back then and whether or not this strategy is in fact legal (doesn't look like it to me) but... Twitter is acting silly! (I came up with a very strong password that I...predictably, forgot... and now they tell me they sent me the email with the info on how to change the password but when I enter the address in the browser they tell me they can't verify that th user requested a password reset... and there is nothing to do then ... try again... just to get the same result -- pretty frustrating! D.
I thought you might find this interesting:
Peter (re: craigslist but seems to be relevant to Wikepedia-Wikimedia also, as far as strategy):
"The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.
When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in [and] cashed in."
http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/articles-are-still-disappointing-but.html
If true (and it certainly appears plausible, consistent with ebay's complaint -- it actually makes sense of some information that was rendered incomprehensible apparently by craigslist' editing out of things it didn't want the public to know), doesn't it look like Jimmy is trying to do th same thing, albeit much less successfully?
He's trying to do it *after the fact* -- he did not have a non-profit and a for profit registered at the same time.
Delia
P.S. I was going to try to see if I could get some info regarding what Peter said by using Twitter, both the actual things that happened back then and whether or not this strategy is in fact legal (doesn't look like it to me) but... Twitter is acting silly! (I came up with a very strong password that I...predictably, forgot... and now they tell me they sent me the email with the info on how to change the password but when I enter the address in the browser they tell me they can't verify that th user requested a password reset... and there is nothing to do then ... try again... just to get the same result -- pretty frustrating! D.
if you've been trying to email, don't despair...
comcast is acting strangely... I''m not receiving even my own test messages at this point although G. is... (hopefully will be ok by this evening) D.
Tuesday, February 10, 2009
articles are still disappointing but comments are getting *much* better...
EVEN MORE:
Lidija,(9th comment)
Peter (3rd comment) :
I'd be interested in more details (basically, documenting what you said in you comment). Feel free to email. Thanks!
Delia (d p e r i o d @ c o m c a s t . n e t),
without the spaces, of course
Lidija,(9th comment)
Here is someone's actual experience with craigslist -- great reading on the topic that would have probably made this article much more balanced. Take care!
Delia
http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/hmmm-how-do-i-get-michael-halligan-to.html
...Peter (3rd comment) :
The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.
When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in a cashed in.
This was brilliant but just a little sinister. Craig is a shrewd businessman, but please spare the b.s. about community-building principles. His top principle was "bait and switch".
Friday, February 6, 2009
hmmm... how do I get Michael Halligan to continue this blog?
MORE: very good, Michael... *very* good!:) D.
re:
@craignewmark in your rush to increase job posting revenue, have you asked the community if your features make their lives easier?
@craignewmark for apartment listings you're the only and worst game in town. It must feel good to be a monopoly @craignewmark My facts are that craigslist has been a nightmare experience for apartment hunting since I first used you in 2000.
@craignewmark Like Microsoft, you maintain market dominance by riding on first-mover luck and massive numbers.
@craignewmark release an open API if you actually care so much about the community. Otherwise you just pay lipservice.
@craignewmark You've become such a sad corporate shill hiding under the pretense of community. Craigslist Ueber Alles.
As I suffer through house-hunting in San Franciso on Craigslist, I can't help but feel like I'm doing business with TicketMaster... Deja Vu?
@craignewmark I'm curious, when you've trained your users to expect inferiority, what's left besides expanding your markets?
Craigslist is "Free" The 30+ hours I've spent there in the three weeks while looking for apartment feels rather expensive for "Free"
@artistatlarge Craigslist is like US foreign policy. We're suffering for the mistakes of older generations :(
@artistatlarge that's a problem with the masses in general. My concern is older generations profit off of bad decisions and we hold the bag
@artistatlarge craigslist now has a monopoly on classifieds in many markets, yet their core functionality has not hanged in a decade
@artstatlarge the only changes are their half-assed account system, annoyingly unreadable captchas, and 200+ new market template
@artistatlarge but we take it because @craignewmark spews out the word "community" like a tourettes patient says, "fuck".
@artistatlarge Craigslist's value is it's mass, not it's functionality. We'd be better off if CL died and it's monopoly were broken.
@artistatlarge like I said .. 1998 called up Craigslist and asked for it's obsolete interface and broken search techniques back.
Delia
P.S. this is by far the best explanation of what's wrong with craigslist out there -- it's running circles around New York Times journalists etc. and doesn't fall in any of the traps (if you don't know the traps by now just read Craig's "answers" to Michael's posts); brilliant job, Michael! thanks!:) D.
....
this Twitter exchange is priceless:
P.S. I've thought of joining Twitter just to pat Michael on the shoulder (he deserves it!) but... I'm afraid I'd get sucked into the Twitter world and end-up spending more not less time on this... D.
re:
@craignewmark in your rush to increase job posting revenue, have you asked the community if your features make their lives easier?
@craignewmark for apartment listings you're the only and worst game in town. It must feel good to be a monopoly @craignewmark My facts are that craigslist has been a nightmare experience for apartment hunting since I first used you in 2000.
@craignewmark Like Microsoft, you maintain market dominance by riding on first-mover luck and massive numbers.
@craignewmark release an open API if you actually care so much about the community. Otherwise you just pay lipservice.
@craignewmark You've become such a sad corporate shill hiding under the pretense of community. Craigslist Ueber Alles.
As I suffer through house-hunting in San Franciso on Craigslist, I can't help but feel like I'm doing business with TicketMaster... Deja Vu?
@craignewmark I'm curious, when you've trained your users to expect inferiority, what's left besides expanding your markets?
Craigslist is "Free" The 30+ hours I've spent there in the three weeks while looking for apartment feels rather expensive for "Free"
@artistatlarge Craigslist is like US foreign policy. We're suffering for the mistakes of older generations :(
@artistatlarge that's a problem with the masses in general. My concern is older generations profit off of bad decisions and we hold the bag
@artistatlarge craigslist now has a monopoly on classifieds in many markets, yet their core functionality has not hanged in a decade
@artstatlarge the only changes are their half-assed account system, annoyingly unreadable captchas, and 200+ new market template
@artistatlarge but we take it because @craignewmark spews out the word "community" like a tourettes patient says, "fuck".
@artistatlarge Craigslist's value is it's mass, not it's functionality. We'd be better off if CL died and it's monopoly were broken.
@artistatlarge like I said .. 1998 called up Craigslist and asked for it's obsolete interface and broken search techniques back.
Delia
P.S. this is by far the best explanation of what's wrong with craigslist out there -- it's running circles around New York Times journalists etc. and doesn't fall in any of the traps (if you don't know the traps by now just read Craig's "answers" to Michael's posts); brilliant job, Michael! thanks!:) D.
....
this Twitter exchange is priceless:
- @craignewmark Every time I have to look for housing, I dislike you a little bit more. 1998 called and they want their bad UI design back.
- @mhalligan Perhaps you can suggest an improvement? I'd appreciate that. First, can you point me to something you've done?
- @craignewmark .. I've been suggesting the same improvements for 8 years. Being first to market makes you lucky, not right.
- @craignewmark Since you monopolize the country's classified's data, how about an API. Give us a chance to make up for your stagnation.
P.S. I've thought of joining Twitter just to pat Michael on the shoulder (he deserves it!) but... I'm afraid I'd get sucked into the Twitter world and end-up spending more not less time on this... D.
is somebody trying to help out or is this something entirely different?
MORE: that page (together with a passage from my blog) comes up when searching for "craigslist criticism" in Google blogs search -- reminds me of something... D.
...
craigslist :: expert craigslist poster needed now
(http://rockinhigh.com/craigslist-expert-craigslist-poster-needed-now)
have no idea what it says (seems to be Russian or similar) -- I did not allow the pop-ups (don't quite trust the site) so that link brings up just three words: Таких записей нет
if this was just to help spread my request, thanks! if it purports to be anything else... please ignore it...
Delia
...
craigslist :: expert craigslist poster needed now
(http://rockinhigh.com/craigslist-expert-craigslist-poster-needed-now)
have no idea what it says (seems to be Russian or similar) -- I did not allow the pop-ups (don't quite trust the site) so that link brings up just three words: Таких записей нет
if this was just to help spread my request, thanks! if it purports to be anything else... please ignore it...
Delia
Thursday, February 5, 2009
alright... the no-comments-thing is still on
but if you have info about the things I'm posting on this blog from now on, please email me! If I deem your contribution significant, I'll include your comment in the body of the entry if you'd like that. thanks!
Delia
P.S. I don't expect to post much (will not keep up with craigslist news, for instance) -- just some odds and ends; if and when I bump into things that I believe shed more light on what I've already discussed on this blog) D.
Delia
P.S. I don't expect to post much (will not keep up with craigslist news, for instance) -- just some odds and ends; if and when I bump into things that I believe shed more light on what I've already discussed on this blog) D.
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