craigslist criticism

yes, I'm aware there have been some developments re: craigslist & ebay...

2011-10-24T19:17:00.000-07:00

... I'm just waiting for it to reach the conclusion so I can do the wrap-up here (I'm planning on one final entry only) ~Delia

to Greg Collier (re: Victor Sage's email on 4/25)

2011-05-20T20:25:00.000-07:00

Greg,

I think you want to be careful with offering solutions that would appear to be at least in part financially motivated (such as directing people to a commercial site). Ideally, you would build in the cost of making transactions safer into your operating costs, as opposed to passing it down to the user. This is of course challenging when you are running a for-profit.

Delia

P.S. hope you know what I'm referring to (would not name the specific commercial site on this blog); please email directly if you'd like more of my input in the future -- I find Victor Sage's emails... well, PRish... which is to be expected, he appears to be a hired PR person after all.

response to: Open letter to craigslist, others to make classifieds sites safe

2011-03-09T19:01:00.000-08:00

Victor & Greg,

Some of your policies such as effective screening appear pretty good! However, I disagree with some of them (certainly with the idea that we need to do away with anonymity or that policing the users -- reporting all crime to the police -- is realistic or a really good idea). That doesn't mean that I agree with what craigslist is doing or rather not doing...

Removing the adult/erotic sections was good! And it did cost them quite a bit of money...(in lost revenue) but it certainly does not appear that it was done for the right reasons if they want to stop there. I certainly agree that craigslist should spend a lot more of its vast resources on combating crime, especially horrible crime. And I've said this on this blog, over and over... Unfortunately, they appear to hide behind their size in an attempt to continue to do little more than give potential victims some advice.

Will the government step in at some point? I think so... But the way to prevent that is not by giving up what I consider fundamental rights such as not being forced to give up your privacy unless you have done something wrong or not being reported to the police for anything and everything that some screening software/person might deem to be a crime.

Still, I agree with the general idea: craigslist's removal of the adult/erotic sections was but one step in the right direction...

Delia

P.S. sorry, this comment is all I can contribute towards this; I do wish you luck with the brain storming and everything else! D.

....

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2011/03/09 11:05:53
Subject: Re: Open letter to craigslist, others to make classifieds sites safe

Greetings!

In recent days, there’s been a blogging war of words between craigslist and the authors of a report that last month referred to the classifieds site as a “cesspool of crime.” The online classifieds site has taken exception to the report and fired back by accusing competitors of skewing the facts.

Greg Collier, the CEO of Geebo, an online classifieds site that is not involved in the back-and-forth exchange, has taken it upon himself to interject in an attempt to navigate the debate into a positive. He has penned an open letter to his industry counterparts, asking them to join him in his efforts to deter criminals from preying on people through online ads.

Geebo already does not accept adult-natured ads and reviews each ad before it goes live to make sure that the content is appropriate. Collier is asking the operators of the other sites not only to take those same steps but to join him in brainstorming policies that could become the new standards for the industry. The alternative, he warned, could be government regulation.

The official release is attached and a copy of Greg’s letter is available online. Greg is available for interviews to discuss his efforts and why he chose to interject in an attempt to shift the debate.

Thanks so much for your consideration. I look forward to hearing from you soon.
Best,

Victor Sage

craigslist pulls "erotic services" worldwide -- congratulations!:)

2010-12-19T19:20:00.000-08:00

good news! I'd like to think they heard me (the P.S. to prior post))... but, in any case, good decision! although it is not at all clear that it was done for the right reasons... (like some of the media coverage says) ultimately, it's really good they did do it!

Delia

P.S. since I am in a congratulatory mood, is this Craig Newmark playing the violin at the Toronto Askenaz music festival? (while I am not Jewish myself, I like the music a lot! -- the fact that I grew up in Romania might have helped, there is a strong Romanian influence (under "style") as far as the tunes go but there is certainly a unique interpretation and special effects) ~D.

craigslist current issues

2010-09-14T17:51:00.000-07:00

I'm just going to address some issue that I see relevant at the moment, in no particular order (things I've recently seen people argue incorrectly)

1) craigslist (and similar companies) is like the phone company <--> the internet provider craigslist uses is like the phone company, but craigslist itself is like a company that would solicit ads to be recorded through the phone and then allow the public to call in and access those ads; as far as I understand it, such a company would be legally liable if it promoted crime

2).ads are moving to other sites so we are no better off by shutting down craigslist erotic/adult section <--> what made craigslist such a big problem in the US (and still does internationally) was its efficiency, moving those ads to less efficient places would normally result in less harm; however, if ONE company would manage to recapture virtually all the "formally-craigslist erotic/adult ads", that would be a real concern and should be shut down ASAP

3). child trafficking is just moving from the streets to the internet <--> I really don't think that's the ONLY thing that's going on here, I believe it is to be expected that MORE (perhaps MUCH more) child trafficking actually results when such an efficient market as craigslist exists; I
would also expect copycat child trafficking to result when potential criminals realize that although a small percentage of traffickers are apprehended, the vast majority of them are NOT!

4). we are better off having them post on the web so that the police can just check the ads and find the criminals <--> given the very limited police resources available and the fact that it is considerably MORE expensive --time-wise and resource-wise-- to bring criminals to justice this way (see explanation in policeman's lawsuit against craigslist) this would only make sense if local police would be allowed to set the number of ads that appear on the site to a number they can manage; opening up the floodgates and expecting the police to do anything beyond catch a few cases
is well-meaning but ignorant at best...

5). it is a free speech issue<--> *forum* posts are a free speech issue, NOT ad posts (the function of an ad -- ANY ad -- is commerce, the function of a forum post is speech; an ad posted in the forums would, of course, still be an ad and should abide by legal regulation of ads

alright, now about the INTERNATIONAL issue: as far as I can see, there is no reason to conclude the moral issue is different for erotic sections provided for countries other than the U.S.; the legal issues are bound to differ but hopefully craigslist will take the moral high ground and not even bother with that

the main problem I see is that craigslist might believe -- rightly or wrongly -- (there has been some evidence to support this) that it was the allowing (or actually cultivating?) of the "sex sections" of craigslist that grew the site beyond anybody's expectation in the U.S.

and it will do the same abroad, given time...

so from a strictly "business" POV it might appear that pulling "the sex sections" at this point would prevent the international craigslist site to reach its potential in term of overall ads, hits and eventually profit

so the challenge is to convince craigslist that it should put moral consideration before financial ones, that it shouldn't WANT success abroad if it would take "helping out" child traffickers...

Delia

P.S. I would certainly like to believe that, in spite of Stephen's evidence, craigslist grew as a result of building a useful community and NOT as a result of all that smut.. and that if that's what it took to grow the site abroad, Craig Newmark and Jim Buckmaster would pass... D.

100 Experts in Letter to Craigslist: Complete the Job, Now

2010-09-14T17:46:00.000-07:00

MORE (craigslist current issue)

sorry... took me longer than I thought, again...

as already said, I hope the group succeeds and am glad to post the press release on my blog; will also post my take on what I see as the current issues, in a separate entry...D.

MEDIA RELEASE

For Immediate Release

Contact:
Andrea Austin
202-425-2307
aaustin@polarisproject.org

Craigslist Must Complete the Job

In Advance of Congressional Hearing Where Craigslist Will Testify,
100 Experts Send Letter to Craigslist Insisting It Close Erotic Sections Worldwide

WASHINGTON, September 14, 2010—On the eve of a Congressional hearing on the sex trafficking of children, 100 leading anti-trafficking experts and organizations sent a letter to Craigslist founder Craig Newmark and CEO Jim Buckmaster calling for the immediate, permanent and complete removal of all Craigslist Adult and Erotic Services sections, worldwide. While these sections were closed in the United States, they remain open in more than 250 cities around the world.

Tomorrow, September 15, 2010, the House of Representatives’ Judiciary Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security will hear testimony from law enforcement, advocacy groups, and Members of Congress who will speak on child sex trafficking in general and Craigslist’s continuing role as a platform that enables it. William Powell, Director of Customer Service and Law Enforcement Relations for Craigslist, and Elizabeth McDougall, Craigslist’s legal counsel, are scheduled to testify at the hearing.

Here are some highlights from the letter:

We thank you for voluntarily closing the Adult Services section of Craigslist in the United States. While this is a positive step, Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. More than 250 Craigslist sites exist around the world that still feature “Erotic” sections where trafficked children and women are being sold for sex.

That you have not made the same improvements globally across your site reveals a disingenuous and inconsistent response on your part. Moreover, the few helpful actions you have taken do not measure up to the amount of daily harm being facilitated by Craigslist through the thousands of Erotic Services ads around the world each day.

The anti-trafficking field is standing with solidarity and unity, and collectively asking you to take down all the Adult and Erotic sections worldwide, completely and permanently.

The letter comes as international law enforcement officials have begun calling on Craigslist to follow through on its commitment to end the sexual trafficking of children and women. Last week, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police called on Craigslist to close the section in Canada: http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/Canada/20100907/rcmp-pushes-craigslist-100907/.

The full text of the letter and the list of signatories are below.

September 14, 2010
Sent via facsimile

Jim Buckmaster, CEO
Craig Newmark, Founder
Craigslist, Inc.
1381 9th Avenue
San Francisco, CA 94122

Dear Craig Newmark & Jim Buckmaster,

The experts in the anti-trafficking field who have signed this letter stand together asking you to shut down all the Adult and Erotic Services sections of your website around the world.

We all know that plenty of activity has preceded this letter. There have been meetings, news articles, research studies, protests, letters from survivors, blogs, boycotts, earnings estimates, lawsuits, subpoenas, and plenty of other actions. The voices of survivors, advocates, service providers, local law enforcement, members of Congress, and State Attorneys General have all implored you to do more to fight the sex trafficking of women and girls that occurs on your site.

We thank you for voluntarily closing the Adult Services section of Craigslist in the United States. While this is a positive step, Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. More than 250 Craigslist sites exist around the world that still feature “Erotic” sections where trafficked children and women are being sold for sex through your website.

Of particular concern is your repeated statement that anti-trafficking “experts” are supportive of your approach. For example, in one of Jim Buckmaster’s online responses on the Huffington Post, he states, “To the contrary, we are convinced Craigslist is a vital part of the solution to this age-old scourge. We've been told as much by experts on the front lines of this fight…”

There are some who may want you to keep the Erotic Services sections going outside the United States for various reasons. Sex traffickers surely want you to keep the sections going because it helps them make high profits by advertising women and children to large audiences of paying customers. “Johns” who pay for commercial sex want you to keep the section because your site makes it easy and less risky for them to buy women and girls simply by surfing the Internet and perusing the photos on various ads. There may even be some law enforcement officials who see some value in placing decoy ads on your site, or using Craigslist ads as evidence in an investigation. However, we highly doubt that on balance, law enforcement would condone a venue that is a platform for the sex trafficking of women and children. The recent letter signed by 17 State Attorneys General strongly suggests that many law enforcement officials believe the best solution is to close the section, as you have done in the United States.

The signers of this letter are the experts on the issue of human trafficking. Many of us work on the front lines, directly with victims on a daily basis. Some of us are survivors of human trafficking.

With this letter, we are telling you that on the whole, Craigslist’s Adult and Erotic Services sections continue to be more part of the problem than part of the solution.

On the day that Craigslist shut down its Adult Services section in the United States, were the pimps and johns who depend on the site to advance the sex trade happy or upset? The answer to this question should help guide your path forward as you address the remaining “Erotic” sections around the world.

We acknowledge that there are some things that Craigslist has done that are part of the solution. Offering to meet with law enforcement and non-profits is a good thing. The decision to start screening the Adults Services ads was a step forward. Eliminating the blatant nudity that persisted in past years in the United States’ Erotic section was also a step forward. Posting national hotlines, and cooperating with law enforcement when cases are found is useful and laudable. As stated above, voluntarily shutting down the Adult Services section in the United States is also a step in the right direction. Despite such steps forward, these efforts are not enough.

We are deeply concerned that you have not yet taken down the Erotic Services sections across the globe. We are also concerned that it seems that you are not applying the screening techniques that were used in the United States to all the other Erotic Services sections worldwide. In changing the name of the Adult Services section from "Erotic" to "Adult" in the United States, why did you not implement this change globally across your entire site? Furthermore, for the “Adult Services” pages in the United States, there was a “Warning & Disclaimer” page that discusses human trafficking and sexual exploitation. This disclaimer page is also present for the “Erotic” sections in Canada. Yet, as of the date of this letter, there is no “Warning & Disclaimer” page for the other international “Erotic” pages. Nudity is also still present in the photos associated with some “Erotic” ads in the international pages. The reality that you have not made the same improvements globally across your site reveals a disingenuous and inconsistent response on your part. Moreover, the few helpful actions you have taken do not measure up to the amount of daily harm being facilitated by Craigslist through the thousands of Erotic Services ads around the world each day.

In a recent letter, Jim Buckmaster stated that human trafficking ads are “quite rare” on Craigslist. Based on our experience and collective knowledge, we know that the presence of human traffickers on your site is more frequent than you realize. Traffickers have figured out ways to post pictures of clothed women and children that can get past your screeners. The anti-trafficking field has yet to be presented with a meaningful solution of how you intend to guarantee that no children are being sexually exploited on your site. As a result, we ask that you take down the Adult or Erotic sections, wherever they appear on Craigslist.

Another important reality for you to realize is that law enforcement does not currently have the resources to review and conduct an investigation of every single Adult or Erotic Services ad on your site. The sheer volume of ads outpaces law enforcement's ability to respond to each one. Consequently, maintaining the Erotic Services sections in other countries enables the majority of Erotic ads to thrive without a law enforcement deterrent. Cooperating with law enforcement when a rare case is brought is a short-term solution, not reflective of an overall systemic analysis of the crime problem that you are enabling.

You have asserted that removing the Adult or Erotic Services sections will not entirely eliminate the presence of sex ads on your site. This may be true, but eliminating the centralized thoroughfares of each designated "Erotic Services" section seriously disrupts pimps and johns who buy and sell women and children on Craigslist. Closing this section of Craigslist across the globe will send a clear signal to sexual predators that you will not stand for them using the site to sexually exploit children and women.

You argue that there are other online sites that advertise sex ads. Yes, the signers of this letter are aware of other sites with adult ads, and we are working to address those sites as well. But frankly, the user volume and name recognition of those sites pales in comparison to yours. They are not a household name like Craigslist.

We collectively feel that if you are seriously committed to ending the site’s use as a platform for sex trafficking of women and children, you will apply the same approach you recently took in the United States and immediately close the remaining Erotic sections around the world.

If you continue to keep the Erotic sections outside of the United States, we ask that you at least be honest and more specific about the reasons why you are keeping them. After receiving this letter, please do not claim that it is because anti-trafficking “experts” agree with you and wholly support your approach.

In closing, we note that in one of Jim Buckmaster’s recent letters, he asked the question: “Would it not be a step backward to confine adult ads to venues that don't cooperate with law enforcement, that don't care what advocacy groups and nonprofits have to say?”

This statement seems to indicate that Craigslist does care what advocacy groups and nonprofits have to say, more than other venues. If this is true, then you must care about this letter. Please hear what we have to say, read the signers of this letter, and recognize that the anti-trafficking field is standing with solidarity and unity, and collectively asking you to take down all the Adult and Erotic sections worldwide, completely and permanently.

SIGNED:

Bradley Myles
Executive Director & CEO
Polaris Project

Malika Saada Saar
Executive Director & Founder
The Rebecca Project for Human Rights

Eliza Reock
Executive Director
Harold & Kayrita Anderson Family Foundation

Carol Smolenski
Executive Director & Co-Founder
ECPAT-USA

Linda Smith (U.S. Congress 1994-98)
Founder & President
Shared Hope International

Kaffie McCullough
Campaign Director
A Future. Not A Past.

Jennifer & Peter Buffett
Co-Chairs
NoVo Foundation

Lisa L. Thompson
Liaison for the Abolition of Sexual Trafficking
The Salvation Army – National Headquarters, USA

Suzanne Koepplinger
Executive Director
Minnesota Indian Women’s Resource Center (MIWRC)

Lee Rope-Batker
President & Chief Executive Officer
Women’s Foundation of Minnesota

Vednita Carter
Executive Director & Founder
Breaking Free

Andrea Powell
Executive Director & Co-Founder
FAIR Fund

Norma Ramos, Esq.
Executive Director
Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW)

Kevin Bales
President & Co-founder
Free the Slaves

Rachel Lloyd
Founder & Executive Director
Girls Educational & Mentoring Services (GEMS)

Laura J. Lederer
President
Global Centurion

William Livermore
Executive Director
Somaly Mam Foundation

Maria A. Trujillo
Executive Director
Houston Rescue & Restore Coalition

Sonia Ossorio
Executive Director
National Organization for Women, New York City Chapter (NOW-NYC)

Amb. Mark P. Lagon
International Relations Chair
Georgetown University MSFS Program

Tina Frundt
Executive Director & Founder
Courtney’s House

Michele Garnett McKenzie
Director of Advocacy
The Advocates for Human Rights

Rachel Durchslag
Executive Director
Chicago Alliance Against Sexual Exploitation (CAASE)

Marisa Ugarte
Executive Director
Bilateral Safety Corridor Coalition (BSCC)

Lisa Goldblatt Grace
Program Director
My Life, My Choice

Frank Massolini
Director
PROMISE Program
The Salvation Army

Laura Penny
Executive Director
Women’s Foundation of Southern Arizona

Frank N. Barnaba
Founder & President
The Barnaba Institute

Debi M. Harris
Chief Executive Officer
Women’s Fund of Miami-Dade

Carol B. Penick
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Mississippi

Dorchen A. Leidholdt
Director, Center for Battered Women’s Legal Services
Sanctuary for Families

Elaine Maly
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Greater Milwaukee

Central Ohio Rescue & Restore Coalition

Cassondra Johnson Blackbird
Executive Director
Sexual Assault Program of Beltrami, Cass & Hubbard Counties

Chris Newlin
Executive Director
National Children’s Advocacy Center

Heather Arnet
Chief Executive Officer
Women & Girls Foundation of Southwest Pennsylvania

Donna M. Hughes
Professor & Carlson Endowed Chair
Women’s Studies Program
University of Rhode Island

Sharon Simpson-Joseph
Executive Director
Juvenile Justice Fund

Marissa Castellanos
Human Trafficking Project Manager
Catholic Charities of Louisville

Michelle Miller
Executive Director
Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity (REED)

Ronna L. Bright
Project Coordinator
Central Valley Against Human Trafficking & Central Valley Freedom Coalition

Tania DoCarmo
Director & Vice President
Chab Dai USA

Helen Sworn
Director & Founder
Chab Dai Coalition

Kristy Childs
Executive Director & Founder
Veronica’s Voice

Mark & Keisha Hoerner
Ethical Living, Inc.

Sara K. Gould
President & CEO
Ms. Foundation for Women

Diana Mao
President
NOMI Network

Melanie Shapiro
Co-Founder
Citizens Against Trafficking

Mary Frances Bowley
President
Wellspring Living, Inc.

Jennifer Mitchell
Assistant Director PROMISE Program
The Salvation Army

Anne Lee
President & CEO
Darkness to Light

Daria Mueller
Policy Specialist
Prostitution Alternatives Round Table (PART) of the Chicago Coalition for the Homeless

Glenda L. McClendon
Office Manager
PACE Center for Girls, Inc.

Barbara Mosacchio
Chief Executive Officer
Atlanta Women’s Foundation

Gordon Heller
Chair, Steering Committee
Dayton Southeast Weed & Seed Project

Dr. Daniel Bercu
President
Doctors at War on Trafficking in Persons

Colette Bercu
Director
Free for Life International

Carol Arthur
Executive Director
Domestic Abuse Project

Marcia Coné
Executive Director
Women’s Fund of Rhode Island

Kara Fagan
Director
The Women’s Fund of Great Chattanooga

Nicola Goren
President
Washington Area Women’s Foundation

Charlotte Boatwright
President
Chattanooga Domestic Violence Coalition

Emily Fitchpatrick
Founder & President
On Eagles Wings Ministries & The Hope House

Pam Strickland
Founder
Eastern North Carolina Stop Human Trafficking Now

Victor Vieth
Director
National Child Protection Training Center (NCPTC)

Madeliene H. Dobbins
Director & Chief Administrative Officer
Delta Research & Educational Foundation

Deborah Sigmund
Founder & Director
Innocents at Risk

Benjamin Nolot
Founder
Exodus Cry

Sidney Ford
Director & Founder
You Are Never Alone (YANA)

Jeff Bauer
Director Public Policy & Civic Engagement
The Family Partnership

Anna Rodriguez
Executive Director & Founder
Florida Coalition Against Human Trafficking

Melissa Gifford
Executive Director & DVTF Team Coordinator
Four Points, Inc.

Kathryn Xian
Non-Executive Director & Founder
Girl Fest Hawaii

Stephanie Davis
Executive Director
Georgia Women for Change, Inc.

Stacia Freeman
Executive Director
The Home Foundation

Erik Voss
Executive Director
The International Center of Atlanta

Sandra J. Robinson
Program Coordinator
Western Kentucky Refugee Mutual Assistance
The International Center of Bowling & Owensboro

Danelle Ragoonanan-Storph
Director
Project Rescue & Assist New Americans
International Institute of Connecticut, Inc.

Kathy Maskell
US Prevention Advisor
Love146

End Internet Trafficking Coalition

Marie Morin
Eastern Regional Director
Long Island Task Force
Love146

The Lucas County Human Trafficking Coalition

Donna Dunn
Executive Director
Minnesota Coalition Against Sexual Assault (MNCASA)

Cyndi Cook
Executive Director
Minnesota Coalition for Battered Women

Claudia Barlow
Chair of the Board
Miramed

Jeannette Pai-Espinosa
President
The National Crittenton Foundation

Veronica Lamb
Outreach Director
Pacific Alliance to Stop Slavery

Sandra L. Hollett
Chief Executive Officer
Partnership for Families, Children & Adults

Dianne Post
Attorney
Phoenix Women Take Back the Night

Kristyn Komarnicki
Editor
PRISM Magazine
Evangelicals for Social Action

Candice Harshner
Executive Director
Program for Aid to Victims of Sexual Assault (PAVSA)

Donna Sabella
Director
Project Phoenix

Trisha Smouse
Anti-Human Trafficking Program Manager
The Salvation Army of Central Ohio

Amy L. Hartman
Diaconal Minister & National Director
Cherish Our Children

Kathie Logan
Program Manager
Sexual Assault Center of NWGA

8th Day Center for Justice

Cordelia Anderson
Co-Director
Sexual Health & Responsibility Program (SHARP)

Renee Morrison
Chairman & Founder
In My Backyard Foundation

Gregory Marx
Director
In My Backyard Foundation

Adeyemi Oshodi
Director of Anti-Trafficking Programs
World Hope International (WHI)

Ann Buwulda
President
Jubilee Campaign USA

Serena Connelly
Co-Founder
Human Rights Initiative of North Texas

Holy Union Sisters

Central Dallas Ministries

Conference call tomorrow (9/8) at 11 AM EST on Craigslist and Adult Services Section

2010-09-07T17:56:00.000-07:00

UPDATE

MORE: sorry I couldn't make it! (turned out to be one crazy day); will try to post this weekend about the international issue

Delia

P.S. pleased to see the group is giving craigslist the chance to join the good fight (whatever the history, it is most important that things go as well as possible from now on) D.

Delia,
That sounds great. If you would like to listen into the call or ask any questions, I can send you the call in. Otherwise, we would appreciate, very much, the posting.

K

Katherine Miller
Managing Director
Hattaway Communications
m: +1 202 489 2205
s: kmillerdc
e: katherine@hattawaycommunications.com
www.hattawaycommunications.com

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 7, 2010, at 7:53 PM, dperiod wrote:

> Hi Brad and Katherine! Thanks for letting me know... It's just that I'm not quite sure what this is asking from me, if anything. Although I've been blogging about craigslist for quite a while, I am not at all "credentialed press" and do not travel in order to get info about craigslist. Part of it is the fact that I need to preserve my privacy (my blogs would look very different if I thought I'd give up my privacy at some point). I do wish you success and would be glad to post the press release on my blog if you'd like that! Let me know if I can help with anything else... thanks! ~Delia
>
> ----- Original message -----
> Sent: 2010/09/07 17:59:51
> Subject: Re: Conference call tomorrow (9/8) at 11 AM EST on Craigslist and Adult Services Section
>
> I hope that you will be able to join Malika Saada Saar, from the Rebecca Project, and Bradley Myles, from Polaris Project, for a call focused on Craigslist's recent decision to close down the US-based Adult Services section and continuing efforts to encourage Craigslist to take additional steps to address global sex trafficking. Details are below. The statement they released today is also pasted below, for your information.
>
> If you have any questions, please let me know.
>
> Katherine Miller
> Managing Director
> Hattaway Communications
> e: kmiller@hattaway.com
> m: +1 202 489 2205
> s: kmillerdc
> www.hattaway.com
>
>
>
> MEDIA ADVISORY
>
>
>
>
>
> What: Press conference call with:
>
> Bradley Myles, Executive Director, Polaris Project
>
> Malika Saada Saar, Executive Director, Rebecca Project for Human Rights
>
>
>
> About: Sex trafficking on Craigslist
>
> When: Wednesday, Sept. 8, 2010 11:00 AM EST
>
> Dial-in: Credentialed press only. RSVP to acole@hattaway.com for dial-in code.
>
>
> Statement on Craigslist
>
>
>
>
>
>
> For Immediate Release: Contact: Bradley Myles
>
> September 7, 2010 Polaris Project
>
> 202-507-7956
>
>
>
> Anti-Trafficking Experts Call for Craigslist to Close Adult Services Outside the U.S.
>
>
>
>
>
> WASHINGTON — Four leading organizations that work on ending the sex trafficking of children and young women issued the following statement in response to Craigslist’s decision to close its adult service section in the United States:
>
>
>
> “We thank Craig Newmark and Jim Buckmaster for voluntarily closing the adult services section of Craigslist in the United States. As the largest classified ads site to have an adult services section, Craigslist has become a major marketplace for buying and selling sex with children and young women. An FBI investigation found 2,800 ads selling sex with children in the adult services section in 2008 alone. Closing this section of Craigslist sends a clear signal to sexual predators that it will not stand for them using the site to sexually enslave children and young women.”
>
>
>
> “While this is a good first step in the U.S., there are still more than 250 other Craigslist ‘erotic’ pages around the world where children and young women are still being sold for sex through Craigslist. Craigslist is a global company, and it has a global responsibility. It should immediately shut down the ‘erotic’ services sections across the globe.” [In many areas, “adult services” is called “erotic services.”]
>
>
>
> “We hope that closing this section only in the U.S. was not simply a PR move in advance of a Congressional hearing on September 15th on sex trafficking where Craigslist has been called to testify. If Craigslist is seriously committed to ending the site’s use as a platform for sex trafficking and the sexual enslavement of children and young women, it will immediately close the remaining sections around the world.”
>
>
>
> Signed,
>
> Polaris Project, Rebecca Project for Human Rights, FAIR Fund, Courtney’s House

craigslist sycophants are speeding up the changing of the law believed to allow craigslist to worsen all sort of ills

2010-09-06T08:11:00.000-07:00

...and no major overhaul would be needed, just to specify what to me appears to be obvious: that if you *know* (or should reasonably know) that things like child trafficking are rampant on your site, you HAVE TO adequately screen in order to get rid of those ads! and that goes for *all* your site... D.

(craigslist's role in increased prostitution/child trafficking) I just don't get Jeff Jarvis...

2010-09-05T22:56:00.000-07:00

MORE: I don't know if I should be surprised... Jeff Jarvis didn't post my comment (comment number 423908): on the one hand, he's never acted coardish towards me in the past (maybe I didn't give him much of a chance, I don't know, just posted lightly on his blog few years back), on the other hand Craig probably leaned on him as usual... D.

http://www.buzzmachine.com/2010/09/05/regulating-sex-and-speech/#comment-423908

re: "The argument has been that craigslist ads are used to serve human sex trafficking. Except craigslist has been openly and consistently helping police in their efforts to arrest traffickers"

Jeff, I'm trying to understand you but I'm having a really hard time...

Just what do you think is the percentage of traffickers that *can* be apprehended? The police has very limited resources...I somehow doubt you don't know that.

How does the minute percentage of those apprehended compare with the increase in such crimes due to the ease of accomplishing the crime with craigslist's help (the most efficient known way to advertise -- 3 times more efficient than places like backpage)?

Providing a very efficient place for initiating prostitution (including trafficking of children) is almost surely dramatically increasing the amount of overall harm. Generally, the harder it is to commit the crime, the less of it actually happens... none of this is rocket science.

Delia

P.S. are the other places just as responsible? absolutely... just for significantly less added harm (perhaps not for lack of trying, they are just nowhere as efficient); as with most harms, the police/government just can't uniformly go after all of them, so the bigger fish are rightly getting the most attention (craigslist's feedback forum used to tell craigslisters who were complaining that their ad got removed while others also in violation remained on the site that if you are speeding you should expect a ticket even if not everybody gets a ticket -- it's funny how they forget when they are the ones speeding three times faster than anybody else around). D.

unlisted craigslist erotic/adult services review forum???

2010-09-03T19:08:00.000-07:00

MORE: Anderson Cooper didn't care to "sit down with Craig/Jim" (left Amber Lyons finish the reporting on the evening of September 6th); did they think he was going to jump to "the honor" or... something else?; there were some articles suggesting Craig/Jim were looking for a way to meet Anderson *socially*... ("for coffee")... Anderson is believed to be gay but, unlike Craig, he gives no reason for making his sexuality known (no publicly known girlfriend or the like); on the other hand, posts claiming Craig is gay still frequently appear on craigslist...

the latest: http://saltlakecity.craigslist.org/rnr/1881490918.html
...
didn't know it existed! (link of http://www.forumslister.com/)

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?forumID=6996

I guess nothing should surprise...(certainly looks like good evidence for aiding & abetting -- let me know what you think! it is moderated, certain posts have been deleted by staff showing they KNOW what's going on in there; you can find explicit discussions and suggestions of particular "providers" and there is enough detail to see what the "services" are (e.g.); there used to be posted pictures, one poster says...)

thanks to slinkybender!: "They have, in fact, explicitly created "secret" discussion forums for johns on their website -- unadvertised locations set aside from among the 10,000 possible forums available on their servers -- and those forums have been highly active for years."

Delia

P.S. if you have time, listen to the short Jim Buckmaster video (just to see how much wholesomeness he is trying to project) and read the Guardian article where he says they make sure all ads are ok and the comments (two from craigslist users are excellent):

"You've agreed to do more screening of ads. Is that going to change the way you run?

JB: In this one category, we are manually screening each ad to ensure that it's fully compliant before it reaches the site. We're not counting the cost there and we're staffing that function as appropriate and as needed to ensure that every ad is fully screened."

No wonder they are pissed with Amber Lyons...and are trying to get someoneELSE to talk to...

craigslist's role in child trafficking

2010-08-23T19:07:00.000-07:00

MORE: best (easiest) legal challenge I see at the moment: by claiming to manually screen all ads, craigslist has become "co-author" of these ads and should be held legally responsible for all problem-ads that appear on the site (since it ok-es them before publication) D.

sorry, got delayed...

Much better media coverage than I've ever seen on this topic! and a lot more people with the ability to really do something (e.g. Massachusetts Attorney General Martha Coakley) finally speaking up...

Unfortunately, some people continue to be blinded by craigslist's arguments that they are not ultimately causing the crime so they are thus not responsible.

As with all crimes, willingness to commit the crime is not enough for the crime to actually happen -- the opportunity must also be there. And the greater the opportunity, the more potential crime becomes actual crime. While craigslist is not causing the willingness to exploit children, the existence of it's "adult services" does appear to dramatically increase the opportunity of committing the crime by providing a very effective advertising platform (much more effective than any other known alternative). Getting rid of the "adult section" would not mean there would be no more child trafficking but it may well mean that there would be a whole lot less of it...

If "adult services" MUST exist (and it is a very difficult argument to make that providing an advertising section for the extremely limited situation when "adult ads" may truly be harmless and legal should win out given the reality of increased child trafficking), it could only be justified if screening would be without reproach. This appears to be hardly the case... It's hard to see how lawyers trained to manually screen each ad (3rd paragraph) could accept as many blatant ads observers have found on the site every time they looked... Just how many lawyers were employed? Hardly enough given the job at hand, it appears... Just how much has craigslist spent from the tens of millions it's been collecting in fees from "adult services" ads on combating the problem? an insignificant amount, it appears...

Delia

P.S. worst problem I see at the moment: some well meaning people with the ability to effect change are not keeping child trafficking separate from prostitution in general (I do believe both are a real problem but child trafficking is by far the worst of the two and should be given priority)D.

(child sex trafficking) will be posting a critique of Jim Buckmaster's response, shortly...

2010-08-10T21:08:00.001-07:00

UPDATE

... might take a week or so... Delia

P.S. key issue: they just don't seem to be monitoring! (which they claim they do...so Amber Lyon was right on the money!) D.

child trafficking: I'm happy to see main stream outfits like CNN are finally doing a good job covering this!

2010-08-04T20:17:00.000-07:00

MORE

Sold on Craigslist: Critics say sex ad crackdown inadequate -- links within this article (to Malika Saada Saar's article and Jim Buckmaster's article) give a balanced view

Delia

P.S. glad to see there seems to be less and less need for this blog (the questions are being asked, the issues are being raised by others...) D.

[Seth Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there...":

2010-07-25T20:02:00.000-07:00

Seth,

in case you are reading this, I continue to be stupefied by the way search engines work (google in particular); I thought I was doing everything wrong! I mean... I only post when I feel like it and that ends up leaving weeks if not months with no posts, so how could a post on this blog (an off-topic one at that) rank so high in the google search? (middle of the 2nd page of hits) there must have been loads of people who wrote about the zittrain-berkman-brill-thing! what's really crazy is that *zittain's answer*, addressing Brill's story, ranks *lower* than the entry on my blog... let me know what you think if you get a chance! Thanks! D.

Delia: will be away for a few days; any further comments will be posted here (in the body of the entry) -- will be back Sunday night! D.

STILL MORE:
(http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/2010/07/07/jonathan-zittrains-conflict-of-interest/comment-page-1/#comment-24158)

Richard, I think you are one of the people that could do a really good job at this!

Delia

re: http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2010/07/aside-zittrain-harvards-berkman-center.html

EVEN MORE Delia: the worst situation that I can imagine is that it might have really been a *quid pro quo* (hefty funding for academic appointment) and Lessig got the 1st endowed professorship just to mask this exchange. Daniel Golden's "The Price of Admission; How America's Ruling Class Buys Its Way into Elite Colleges -- and Who Gets Left Outside the Gates" gives good background on how something like this might have worked out. D.

MORE: Seth's follow up post

Of course Zittrain is not naive - I'd say he's one of the most sophisticated and savvy people I've ever met. And someone does not become a professor at Harvard AND Oxford without being able to swim with sharks in some deep very waters indeed. His personal story would be interesting in a certain way, but Emily Brill didn't tell it. The article had much of a petty individual scandal tone against him, which I don't think was justified - and parts of that didn't even seem to be accurate. Again, the broader institutional issues, mentioned later on, are a different matter. Those are orders of magnitude more meaningful.

The fact that the Berkman Center gets plenty of publicity doesn't translate into support for a thorough analysis of it. Remember, journalism is basically gone - it's been replaced by attention-mongering, err, the link economy.

Posted by Seth Finkelstein to craigslist criticism at July 26, 2010 2:05 AM

I agree that she didn't do a very good job at it (and already said that) but I don't know about having necessarily been against him *personally*, rather than against his involvement with the Berkman center.

She *had* to say how she stumbled on the issues in the first place and that was as much of her own personal story (if you want to look at it that way) as it was Zittrain's. To me, her story sounds pretty mundane, I just don't see the scandal in it... : she applied for a job, was invited to sit in one of his classes and started wondering...

I wouldn't be surprised if she lost her chance to get the job once she started asking Zittrain questions about the inside workings of the Berkman center (things like where does the funding come from, which I believe she was entitled to know so she could make an informed decision on whether or not to accept the job if offered). And this is definitely relevant to the story that's worth telling.

Zittrain is by no means dumb but I'm not convinced that he would have become a Harvard Law Professor and had the academic career he ended-up having if he wouldn't have been a major player in setting up the Berkman center. One of the things to look into would be whether or not he had personal ties to the Berkmans and might have talked them into donating money to Harvard for this particular project. I suspect that was the case... I also suspect the Berkmans ended-up giving even *more* money to Harvard for other things and Harvard was grateful for Zitttrain's helping out with fund raising.

And yeah, the institutional level *is* the ultimate concern but it wouldn't have gotten to that point would Harvard had not allowed the Berkman center to be created in the first place. The way it *looks like* to me (and, of course, these are ALL just *my suspicions* -- it would have to be all checked) is that Harvard allowed itself to be corrupted and Zittrain was the one who ultimately made it happen.

Delia

P.S. I meant to say that *Emily Brill's story* got plenty of publicity (not just the Berkman center). So now plenty of people are aware of the issues. I believe there are still some decent journalists out there although their numbers do seem to be dwindling. D.

....

I agree, there's a story, but I'd say Jonathan Zittrain ended up personally scapegoated for what's broad institutional sins. The problem is that the overall story is a lot of research and work, plus one would have to deal with the inevitable push-back from the Berkman Center and allies. It's not an easy topic to write about.

Posted by Seth Finkelstein to craigslist criticism at July 25, 2010 1:31 PM

Seth,

The way I see it, Zittrain MUST have known what he was doing... Heck, he co-founded the monstrosity and served as it's 1st director from 1997 to 2000! Only *after* that period was he made Assistant Professor of Law at Harvard. So you gotta wonder if that was his ticket to getting an academic appointment at Harvard Law School.

The other major players in this (Nesson -- the other co-founder and Lessig -- who held the 1st endowed professorship) were already established academically prior to their involvement with the "academic based" advocacy center.

I do believe this is a story well worth telling and I'd be really surprised if Zittrain would show to have been merely in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I suspect that as time passed there were some significant changes made to counter the appearance (and the actual wrong doing) related to the center. And yeah... it wouldn't be easy and anybody even remotely associated with it would probably try to stop it/detract from it/etc.-- doesn't mean it wouldn't be worth doing! on the contrary...

And I do hope somebody will do a great job at it! (it's got plenty of publicity -- there must be *somebody* out there willing and able to do it)

Delia

(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there is a big story there!

2010-07-24T23:03:00.000-07:00

STILL MORE: Seth's comment

EVEN MORE of my old thoughts...

MORE (more on my OLD thoughts on the issue)

... and no, Emily Brill didn't do a very good job on it (more like a good start --just in terms of *ideas*, as far as where the *issues* are --> she should have dug much deeper! [my casual take on the topic quite a while back]; {also related]

Delia

P.S. I would expect things to have changed by now, at least I *hope* they did... but there is probably still plenty to be concerned about and it would thus make a story worth telling! D.

[craigslist criticism] New comment on (trafficking in women) real life protests against ....

2010-07-09T10:59:00.000-07:00

MORE: Thanks, Katherine! yeah... there is a lot more to say about this than I allowed myself time for... ok! I'll have to elaborate now:) As a first event of its kind (as far as I'm aware of) the fact that it made an impact is significant. These are not easy things to implement, *in general*, (especially on a very limited budget, as it appears to have been) and they had some serious added-on difficulties.

You picked-on the most significant one I believe, the fact that not all relevant orgs joined the protest -- that not everybody believes craigslist should necessarily do away with its "erotic/adult" sections. As I've said on this blog, I personally believe they should definitely give it a try! And as long as they don't, I have a hard time believing they could possibly care...

Having said that, it would have been much more valuable as public discourse if these orgs would have come to the event *anyways* and explained the reasons for their dissension but my feeling is that they didn't want in any way to undermine organizations with which they share so many core principles.

They probably also felt that it was a mistake to lump together the issue of human trafficking in minors with the issue of *prostitution in general*, not because they believe prostitution can be a good thing... but because doing so diffuses the focus from the primary concern.

I personally believe prostitution is a bad choice, regardless of the circumstance because it is fraught with inherent risks extremely difficult to control and also negatively impacts other people than the two making "the deal" (even in the cases when it is "consensual," and I seriously doubt it is *ever* truly mutually consensual when it ultimately comes down to it... and not only on the side of the women, plenty of men appear to have something at least resembling an addiction, shelling out money that they can ill afford...so it can actually be predatory on the "career" prostitute's side)

But yeah... it would have helped to keep these things separate and I trust that the orgs will learn from this experience and have a bigger event and a bigger impact next time. Still, as far as I'm concerned, it was not bad for a start!

Delia

P.S. sorry to hear about the bad personal experiences you had, hopefully everything will be better next time! D.

.........
katherine. has left a new comment on your post "(trafficking in women) real life protests against ...":

it was an interesting event...but disappointing.

my take on the Craigslist Protest

(trafficking in women) real life protests against craigslist start

2010-06-29T21:31:00.000-07:00

comment

MORE: protest against craigslist certainly made an impact! Craig&Co painted over the "craigslist" sign...was that in shame? (http://bit.ly/9NWLoE) about 15 hours ago via web

STILL MORE: misguided anti-protest against craigslist; twitter: sorry but the safe thing to do is get *out* of this business! you should be able to get help but NOT to keep doing it...http://bit.ly/9V1BAk 3 minutes ago via web

EVEN MORE: twitter: (trafficking in women) finally! major news outlet coverage: CBS5/ BCN(http://bit.ly/ahVtQF) Protesters Slam Craigslist's 'Adult Services'~D. 7 minutes ago

bs5.com/technology/craigslist.protesters.adult.2.1794522.html

UPDATE:(trafficking in women) real life protest against craigslist garners even more support -- Congresswoman Jackie Speier among them

twitter: (trafficking in women) real life protest against craigslist garners even more support;e.g.Congresswoman Jackie Speier (http://bit.ly/ahVtQF) less than 20 seconds ago via web

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/07/01 21:32:42
Subject: Re: Leading Human Rights Groups To Protest Craigslist HQ's on 7/08/10: For Immediate Release

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

July 1, 2010

Contacts:

NORMA RAMOS, Esq., (212) 643-9895 and MELISSA FARLEY, Ph.D., (415) 922-4555
On July 8, 2010 at noon the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW), Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) and our over 75 Co-Sponsors will protest Craigslist's facilitation of sex trafficking at Craigslist’s office, 1381 9th Avenue, San Francisco, CA 94122.

A large portion of Craigslist’s profits come from the sale of commercial sexual exploitation, much of it trafficked, all of it prostituted. Craigslist normalizes and facilitates online pimping - providing an outlet and incentive, for sex traffickers to reach buyers of human beings. “By providing traffickers and johns with a virtual red light district, Craigslist is aiding, abetting and enormously profiting from sex trafficking,” says Norma Ramos, Executive Director of CATW.

Our protest is co-sponsored by 75 leading human rights and anti-trafficking organizations and prominent individuals including Equality Now, End Child Prostitution and Trafficking (ECPAT-USA), Center for World Indigenous Studies, Soroptimists International of the Americas, Nevada Coalition Against Sexual Violence, Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, Asian Americans for Community Involvement, and Gloria Steinem, author Victor Malarek, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and Congresswoman Jackie Speier.

Sex trafficking is fueled by the demand for prostitution along with impunity for its buyers. According to Melissa Farley, author of 20 research articles on trafficking for prostitution, “Today, a majority of men buy sex online from women or children many of whom are trafficked or controlled by third parties. Craigslist mainstreams prostitution as ‘Adult Services’. This protest exposes these ads for what they really are: the sale of sexual exploitation, paid rape, child abuse, and trafficking.”

Craigslist has defied and defeated the efforts of Attorneys General, a high profile lawsuit and members of Congress who have tried to put an end to their facilitation of sex trafficking. Despite evidence of criminal activity associated with its website, Craigslist remains above the law. “We are sending a message to Craigslist from the human rights community that by hosting these ads they are partially responsible for much of the rank exploitation that is human trafficking,” says Ms. Ramos.

We are calling upon Craigslist to close the euphemistically named “Adult Services” section of their website, set a sex industry-free standard which would help to eliminate human trafficking on the internet.

Speakers include: Joy Friedman, Breaking Free; Glenda Hope, Executive Director, SafeHouse San Francisco for Homeless Women Escaping Prostitution; Victor Malarek, Author/Activist; Aaron Cohen, Author/Activist; Terria Joseph, Actor.

For a complete list of the 75 Co-Sponsors who have joined CATW and PRE visit our websites at www.catwinternational.org and www.prostitutionresearch.com

EVEN MORE: twitter: (trafficking in women) real life protests against craigslist start (http://bit.ly/ahVtQF) Gloria Steinem, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney ~D. 1 minute ago via web

MORE: there have already been some online (on social sites, such as twitter) but this is the first one in person that I'm aware of... hopefully it will make some serious impact and, unless craigslist truly changes, it will not be the last! ~Delia

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/06/29 21:52:48
Subject: Re: Craigslist Protest - Join Us

Dear D,

Below and attached you will find an announcement regarding a protest the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) is organizing in partnership with Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) in front of Craigslist’s headquarters in San Francisco. Crrently, the protest is co-sponsored by 66 leading anti-trafficking organizations and prominent individuals including Gloria Steinem, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and author Victor Malarek.

I thought you may find it interesting given your blog, Craigslist Criticism. Feel free to post our announcement on your blog as well. Best, Elaine

Elaine L. Afanador

Executive Assistant

Coalition Against Trafficking in Women

P (212) 643-9895

F (212) 643-9896

www.catwinternational.org

Join Us On Thursday, July 8,2010

To Protest Craigslist at their San Francisco Headquarters

The Coalition Against Trafficking in Women (CATW) in partnership with Prostitution Research and Education (PRE) and other co-sponsors will be holding a protest in front of Craigslist Headquarters in San Francisco on July 8th to bring attention to Craigslist’s facilitation of and profiting from sex trafficking. “Craigslist continues to cynically profit by functioning as an online pimp,” says Norma Ramos, Executive Director of CATW. “Craigslist is the new stroll where pimps traffic, johns buy and Craigslist profits,” says Melissa Farley, Executive Director, PRE.

Craigslist is projected to realize a 22% increase in revenue - an estimated $36 million in 2010 - largely attributable to its functioning as a virtual red light district for pimps/traffickers and johns. Craigslist displays a reckless disregard for human rights by increasingly becoming a part of the sex industry. Craigslist could act to create a sex trafficking free internet by no longer hosting prostitution ads and thereby setting an industry standard.

We invite you to join CATW, PRE and our co-sponsors who include: Gloria Steinem, Breaking Free,Equality Now, A Call to Men, End Child Prostitution and Trafficking (ECPAT-USA), and many others at our protest to hold Craigslist accountable for facilitating and profiting from the rank exploitation of others.

Speakers Include:

Joy Friedman, Women’s Program Manager, Breaking Free
* Glenda Hope, Executive Director, SafeHouse San Francisco for Homeless Women Escaping Prostitution
* Victor Malarek, Author/Activist, The Natashas and The Johns
* Aaron Cohen, Author/Activist, Slave Hunter
* Terria Joseph, Actor
*
When: Thursday, July 8, 2010

Where: Craigslist Headquarters

1381 9th Avenue (Between Judah and Irving Streets)

San Francisco, CA 94122

Time: 12:00 – 2:00 PM

Co-Sponsors Include: Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney (D-NY), Center for World Indigenous Studies (Mexico/USA), Men Stopping Violence, Dayton Human Trafficking Accords, UNANIMA International, Aboriginal Women’s Action Network (Canada), The Temple Committee Against Human Trafficking (Canada), The Barnaba Institute, Global Centurion, National Organization For Women - NYC (NOW-NYC), Kathleen Barry, Robin Morgan, Embrace Dignity Campaign (South Africa), The Rebecca Project for Human Rights, Stop Porn Culture, Media Watch, Pacific Alliance to Stop Slavery, Girl Fest Hawaii, Public Good Project, Children’s Civil Rights Union, California Survivors of Craigslist Trafficking, Chab Dai USA, Veronica’s Voice, Women’s Justice Center, LOOKBOTHWAYS, California Against Slavery, A Girl Like Me Campaign, Nomi Network, Women’s Global Resource and Development Initiative, Minorities and Survivors Improving Empowerment (MASIE), Live2Free, Lydia Today Foundation, Love146, Nevada Coalition Against Sexual Violence, Nevada Coalition Against Sex Trafficking, National Dominican Women's Caucus, Because Justice Matters, New York League of Puerto Rican Women, Inc. (NYLPRW), Soroptimist International of the Americas, Women's Support Project (Scotland), Revolt: Fight To End The Commercial Sex Trade, Exploited Voices now Educating (EVE), My Sisters's Place, Inc (Canada), What If It Were Your Daughter/Silver Braid, Sex Industry Survivors, REED (Resist Exploitation, Embrace Dignity) (Canada), Apne Aap (India), Asian Women Coalition Ending Prostitution, Bamboo Bridges, Vancouver Rape Relief and Women's Shelter (Canada), Canadian Association of Sexual Assault Centres, Council for Prostitution Alternatives, Abolish Slavery, Mrs. Gingerbread Inc., Technorazzi.com, Asian Americans for Community Involvement (AACI), Feministiskt Initiativ (Sweden), Raise The Bar Productions, EAVES (UK), TFK Ventures, LLC., Setting the Captives Free Ministries (Canada)…

* Please help get the word out by e-mailing this notice to your contact list.

(comic & sad) Jim Buckmaster wants to shut up researchers

2010-06-26T20:46:00.000-07:00

twitter: underage -Schaphiro group publishes results of study that *dare* put craigslist in a bad lighthttp://bit.ly/bOdp9I Jim Buckmaster is pissed! 7 minutes ago via web

... if they find out anything that puts craigslist in a bad light? can he truly be that dense...? apparently, so -- he wants them to *cease and desist!* using craigslist's name when presenting the results of the under age prostitution research they did on a number of sites including craigslist

thankfully, the Schaphiro group didn't give in to craigslist's bullying and published results of the study that *dare* put craigslist in a bad light: "Craigslist is by far the most efficient medium for Johns"

meaninglessly high search numbers for craigslist

2010-06-04T15:35:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE: twitter

@jzawodn jeremy, was there something you wanted to say or... should I take it as no comment? ~Delia re: (http://bit.ly/90Sfz8) about 11 hours ago via web

@jzawodn re: http://bit.ly/dlxigZ Jeremy, you asked me to expand on what I had originally wrote in that entry and that's what I did (MORE).. 15 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: http://bit.ly/dlxigZ the main paragraph did nothing but fully explain what I had already written (MORE)... 14 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: http://bit.ly/dlxigZ Jim' s entry on the craigslistblog was what prompted the whole issue so I felt I had to address it... MORE 14 minutes ago via web

@jzawodn re: http://bit.ly/dlxigZ I did not necessarily expect you to address what Jim said, although it is definitely related; no big deal! 15 minutes ago via web

twitter: (craigslist search) discussion with craigslist's Jeremy Zawodny --craigslist criticism blog (http://bit.ly/90Sfz8) feel free to join! ~Delia half a minute ago via web

MORE: email exchanges published with the permission of craigslist' Jeremy Zawodny

As far as I can see, a comparison of search providers based on the number of search inquiries only makes sense if search efficiency is comparable. I don't believe that is the case: craigslist search is much more inefficient than google search, for instance, even when just searching craigslist -- because there are much fewer parameters available for the craigslist search when compared with google advanced search (you can't search in more than one location, for instance, even if you'd be willing to drive well outside of your own city and plenty of people do), one needs to perform a lot more search inquiries to get the same information that could be obtained through just one search using google. And plenty of information that google easily gives through a single inquiry could never be obtained by using craigslist search.

My suspicion has been that craigslist keeps its search (and the rest of the site) antiquated, barely changing things, at least in part because it makes the numbers look better, it looks like there is a lot more activity on the site and in fact there is, it's just that it is meaningless activity... frustrated people spending way more time on getting things done than they would really need to be spending.

Delia

P.S. also, I have no idea where Jim Buckmaster got his numbers and have no way of checking as long as he gives no references, the march 2010 report he refers to looks very different than his numbers... I find it strange that he gives no link to the source:
http://www.comscore.com/Press_Events/Press_Releases/2010/4/comScore_Releases_March_2010_U.S._Search_Engine_Rankings/(language)/eng-USD

I also find it deceiving that he claims Comscore has ranked craigslist number 5 when, apparently, it has done nothing of the kind -- the designation is really Jim's... re: "Here are the top 5 search providers, as ranked by Comscore for March 2010" D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2010/06/05 21:27:24
Subject: Re: Re: [craigslist criticism] New comment on meaninglessly high search numbers for craigslist.

Sure.

Jeremy

On Sat, Jun 05, 2010 at 04:27:13PM -0400, dperiod wrote:

re: Can you expand on that a bit? Or email me: jzawodn@craigslist.org

Thanks,

Jeremy

sure... is it ok to post our email exchanges in the body of my blog entry you commented on? ~Delia

(http://blog.craigslist.org/2010/05/mere-happenstance/#comment-163874) twitter

Jeremy: my impression is that there is a whole lot of useless searching on craigslist (which meaninglessly bumps up the numbers) because the search function continues to be archaic and inefficient (apparently on purpose)

Delia

Peninsula Congresswoman Jackie Speier, local bay area politician, moved to action

2010-06-04T14:33:00.000-07:00

STILL MORE: craigslist grantees seem to be "paying back"; the issue is facilitation -is there MORE crime as a result of craigslist?http://bit.ly/dpyQmG 9 minutes ago via web

EVEN MORE: (twitter) sounds a lot like the advice I gave Jim --good to see it is taken seriously, especially since for Jim it appears to have fallen on deaf ears 19 minutes ago via web

MORE: "Jackie Speier is also asking the House Judiciary Committee to hold a hearing on how Web sites like Craigslist are being used to facilitate criminal activity."(2nd paragraph) twitter

"Peninsula Congresswoman Jackie Speier [will] ask U.S. Attorney Joseph Russoniello to help San Francisco’s Craigslist avoid the facilitation of prostitution and human trafficking'.(lasty paragraph) twitter

is craigslist's adult section much more effective then backpage etc.?

2010-05-20T20:08:00.000-07:00

MORE: twitter: Trouteaud: "Craigslist [adult] ads received three times the response of similar ads posted with a competitor, Backpage" http://bit.ly/dr7Aqm 4 minutes ago via web

re: prior; Trouteaud: 47 percent still wanted to proceed even after learning the girls were minors -Schapiro Group study of craigslist adult 3 minutes ago via web (5th paragraph from bottom)

that has been my belief for a long time and looks like they are coming up with evidence: Alex Trouteaud "Craigslist ads received three times the response of similar ads posted with a competitor, Backpage"(4th paragraph from bottom)

is Jim Buckmaster for real? giving another try...

2010-05-11T19:25:00.000-07:00

MORE: and again, Jim Buckmaster did not post my comment (although he already posted a pretty much random one -- much less relevant -- and submitted after mine) -- I can pretty much ignore his stuff from now on (seems to be B.S.) D.

Jim,

(http://blog.craigslist.org/2010/05/an-open-invitation-to-rachel-lloyd/#comment-159056)

You just *can't* keep any of that money and expect people to believe that you are honest or that you care about the very serious problems you talk about here -- you must realize this. I don't know whose idea it really was, but the AGs agreed with the charging of the fee and you publicly vowed not to profit from it. As long as you keep your word, the impasse should be solvable. I would just hand over all those profits to the AGs and tell them to do as they will with it! because you have trouble giving it away as was planned and do not want to keep any of it.

I would also ask them to get together with the orgs they deem pertinent and come up with ways to solve the problem and offer honest cooperation. If they say, you should shut down the adult section and you believe it would really make no real difference -- give it a try! Shut down the erotic section in one location where it has high activity at the moment and see what happens -- are those ads truly migrating to personals in mass as you appear to believe would be the case or only a small part of them do? Given that some may suspect conflict of interest, make sure you allow a neutral party to do the determination of what is really going on and make that public regardless of their findings.

As long as there is a genuine desire to solve this problem, I see no reason why things could not drastically improve.

Delia

is Craig Newmark honestly asking for suggestions?

2010-05-11T18:43:00.000-07:00

Twitter: Craig Newmark: http://bit.ly/cxlgsl what should craigslist do?do NOTprofit from erotic/adult/prostitution as promised hand over all$ to AGs 9 minutes ago via web

..and let them do as they will with it! let them get together with the relevant orgs and figure out what should be done and go along with it 8 minutes ago via web

Jim Buckmaster blasts poor Brad Stone of NYT

2010-04-28T20:05:00.000-07:00

MORE: KATHARINE MIESZKOWSKI Nonprofit to Craigslist: Keep Your Money (http://nyti.ms/bbfOsk) yep! that's what I thought... (http://bit.ly/d4NOuk) 10:12 PM May 2nd via web

Twitter:

NYT's Brad Stone dares look at it from both sides *for once*&Jim Buckmaster blasts him for it -prior suck-ups forgotten http://bit.ly/aUuu04 17 minutes ago via web

ok, Jim! so the prostitution $ doesn't go in the Craigslist Charitable Fund or *does* it? -grantees would need to know http://bit.ly/9gBYMV 12 minutes ago via web

..does Jim Buckmaster think people are going to believe that craigslist is making that kind of $ from barely legal massage ads and the like? 10 minutes ago via web

or that the fact that others are doing it also is a legitimate excuse? he would do well to remember the CL feedback speeding ticket analogy 3 minutes ago via web

yet again, is craigslist facilitating prostitution?

2010-04-26T18:21:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE

MORE: Twitter yet again, is craigslist facilitating prostitution? http://bit.ly/dmJaLO let me know what you think! ~Delia 7:09 PM Apr 26th via web

also are Craig Newmark & Jim Buckmaster profiting from prostitution although they vowed not to keep the money? certainly looks like it! ~D. 7:15 PM Apr 26th via web

again, NYT's Brad Stone comes up with a "friendly"-towards-craigslist title "Sex Ads Seen Adding Revenue to Craigslist" -- really, now? that's a fair characterization of the issue? *lol* still, with some exceptions(e.g. the number of places where craigslist is charging has been creeping up for a long time -- you *have to* say that so people can understand what's going on) he somehow manages to give a fairly balanced account. But the ending paragraph is just bizarre... looks like he just has to compliment Craig& Jim somehow and just doesn't care that it's awkward at best...

Delia

trolls or "truth fighters"?

2010-04-14T04:46:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE:

Stowe, (11th comment)

It was a short comment -- that's all I had time for. I really thought the first paragraph made my point (the P.S. was just meant to give a case very in point of just how doubtful it is that a system of figuring out trustworthiness would succeed in practice). And I didn't say true trolls should be tolerated, just that the *focus* should be on getting useful comments. As far as I'm concerned somebody who has serious trust issues of his own has no standing preaching to people about trust. And I don't see how pointing out serious documented concerns (I gave the direct links so people can see what I'm talking about) could constitute personal attack. You should always be able to point-out the truth -- how could anybody feel attacked by it, unless they are hiding from it...

Delia

P.S. I gotta go... will check tonight (Eastern time) if you'd like to continue this -- take care! D.

MORE: Twitter: @ stoweboyd trolls or "truth fighters"? re: Craig Newmark: Who do you trust? your blog -couple of issues, left comment http://bit.ly/aqLLkp less than 20 seconds ago via web

Stowe,

The real problem is that just as somebody's "terrorist" often turns out to be a freedom fighter, "truth fighters" online are often labeled as trolls. I think the worry is misplaced. People should be preoccupied with getting as many useful comments as possible, rather than making sure there is no barking going on... At best, comments are pointing out fundamental flaws and truly helping out the author (if the pursuit of truth is really the ultimate objective) and at worst they are just barks that are bound to die down relatively quickly.

Delia

P.S. I seriously doubt a technological way of figuring out trustworthiness would really work in practice. I think it's telling that somebody like Craig Newmark has no problem complaining about trust issues and being taken seriously, especially in the wake of the ebay v. craigslist suit. It's hard to see how he did not abuse craigslisters' trust by having them believe he did not financially benefit from the ebay deal (to the tune of about $10 million, as it turns out) or when he vowed ebay didn't get more than 25% of craigslist.

http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/12/ebay-v-craigslist-newmark-and.html

(aside) Arriana Huffington wants nothing controversial

2010-04-13T19:30:00.000-07:00

MORE: twitter: @geekguidebook (http://bit.ly/blaLBa) re: Huffington bad idea to lump vile comments together with merely controversial ones @ariannahuff ~D. 2 minutes ago via web in reply to geekguidebook

(comic, prior) Huffington: “There is a younger generation that doesn’t feel the same need for privacy” --> hopefully, they'll grow up! :) D. 3 minutes ago via web

Hi, Jeff!

(http://geekguidebook.com/2010/04/future-of-online-anonymous-comments/comment-page-1/#comment-8)

What's the point of putting the info out there if you are going to lump vile comments together with merely controversial ones, the way Arriana Huffington does (quote in your article). If there is nothing controversial about what you are writing, it's most likely a boring article and thus a poor choice in the first place...

Delia

P.S. (comic) re: Huffington: “There is a younger generation that doesn’t feel the same need for privacy” --> hopefully, they'll grow up! :) D.

(aside) (iPhone; iPad etc.) Dan Gillmor praises Jonathan Zittrain

2010-04-11T21:18:00.000-07:00

FINAL: #comment 1851

http://mediactive.com/2010/04/06/net-neutrality-has-always-been-up-to-lawmakers-will-they-pay-attention-now/#comment-1851

as usual, Seth's voice would have balanced this entry but you appear to have driven him away... Jon left much earlier and I will be on my way also... bye!

Delia

P.S. submitted a comment to your iPhone entry (#1821)-- appears to be counted but not posted (no big deal, I would have left anyways) D.

EVEN MORE: Twitter (aside) (iPhone; iPad etc.) Dan Gillmor praises Zittrain, apparently without noticing the contradiction (http://bit.ly/cL65xc) any opinions? 2 minutes ago via web

MORE: not sure if I did something wrong when trying to post it... will see..
...

...apparently without noticing the contradiction

Dan,

(http://mediactive.com/2010/04/08/complicating-relationships-in-media-apple-ny-times-dealings-raise-questions/#comment-1821)

re: "The iPhone, locked down from the beginning, started Apple down a road I cannot support"

and... neither do you have one as your own cellphone... good! I can believe that what you are saying is what you actually believe.. which is the 1st step in being taken seriously -- not the case with Jonathan Zittrain who uses an iPhone *himself* but would have us all believe... *we* shouldn't!

Delia

speak now or forever hold your ... thoughts!

2010-04-11T19:26:00.000-07:00

MORE: Twitter: getting terribly bored waiting for a resolution to the ebay v. craigslist suit, which should really be the end of my trying to figure it out 6:11 PM Apr 10th via web
...
I don't expect to be doing this much longer -- can't believe it's been dragging on for this long so if you'd like to have some of your own thoughts about this on this blog, whoever you might be, you may want to hurry up and let me know!(please email instead of posting comments) 'cause when it's done...it's done! (there is a chinese guy--or gal?-- that's still trying to get some comments on my numanuma blog (thenumanumathing), *years* after I closed it... ~Delia

(aside) zittrain's doom & gloom technique still working for him...

2010-04-08T04:29:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE: (aside) (comic) "We should focus on preserving our freedoms" but NOT by stopping to use these offending devices, just by whining about them! less than 20 seconds ago via web

MORE: I was going to leave a comment for Nick Carr but he makes people register to do that... nope! I'm not going to do that -- unnecessary hassle given that commenters are basically doing a favor by going to the trouble of posting comments....

will see if he gets it by twitter

(aside) @roughtype (Nick carr) @zittrain's (Jonathan Zittrain) doom & gloom technique still working for him... (http://bit.ly/9QM6py) ~Delia half a minute ago via web

Nick,

zittrain's "the sky is falling" arguments re: everything "i" (iPhone, iPad etc.) would be much easier to take seriously if it did not appear that he doesn't really buy his own arguments (e.g. by his own acknowledgment, uses an iPhone himself).

Delia

p.s. seems to continue Lessig's doom & gloom technique, mostly for attention grabbing purposes... D.

does facebook facilitate the spread of syphilis, does craigslist facilitate all sort of crimes?

2010-03-24T19:40:00.000-07:00

STILL MORE:

@roncallari thanks for the link, Ron! same issue: only thing correct is that the guy did not prove it but it is definitely a possibility ~D. 2 minutes ago via web in reply to roncallari

EVEN MORE:

http://gigaom.com/2010/03/24/facebook-causes-syphilis-and-craigslist-kills-people/#comment-1016443

sorry about the delay...

re: "no one is saying that Facebook actually causes syphilis, but they are saying that it is to blame for people getting syphilis, in the same way that people blame Craigslist for other people’s homes being broken into or whatever the case may be."

Matthew, as I said in my 1st comment:

"Quite possibly, Facebook may facilitate the spread of syphilis (and thus cause the observed “rise in syphilis” like the actual Telegraph title says) and Craigslist may well facilitate killings, as well as all sort of other crimes."

this is the issue that needs to be addressed ... but you *can't* even get to it if you fall in the trap of Craig Newmark and similar and believe that regardless of what the facts show, facebook/craigslist/etc. just can't have anything to do with the fourfold rise in syphilis, for instance... so all that's left is to blame it all on "human nature" and watch all sort of ills go through the roof without even attempting to do anything about it!

compare that with actually acknowledging what's going on and taking measures to keep things under control -- and it's no trivial matter (peoples' lives are often at stake!)

Delia

P.S. already said everything I had to say on this -- take are! D.

MORE:

you are welcome!

Again, as far as I can see, you are only correct on the fact that based on the info presented *we don't know*... not that there is no evidence (they listed plenty of it! it's just not conclusive) or it *couldn't* be the case that say, if Facebook went down for a significant length of time, the rates of syphilis would go down to a quarter of what they are while Facebook is operational, all other things being equal.

And of course, you can never prove 100% that all other things were equal but the Telegraph article would have been much stronger if they would have shown that they checked for the other major things that could have caused the number to go up fourfold and none were found.

Delia

P.S. I'm not buying the argument that it's like the phone or the automobile is somehow directly (physically) causing syphilis -- how silly, that's not what the argument is about at all... Although plenty of people have fallen for that and other of Craig Newmark's ridiculous PR, that's just a means of causing confusion and evading the problem: it's distracting from the fact that the use of particular phones and/or automobiles (like the use of Facebook or craigslist) can easily cause an increase in serious crimes. And there are things that could and should be done about it.

To stay with this analogy, most people don't really doubt the fact that forbidding the use of the phone for texting while driving an automobile reduces vehicular manslaughter and putting this into law makes sense. It has nothing to do with the ridiculous argument that the phone and/or automobile are killing people... D.

let's give Mathew Ingram another try:

Matthew,
(http://gigaom.com/2010/03/24/facebook-causes-syphilis-and-craigslist-kills-people/#comment-1015285)

I'm not sure if you misrepresented the article on purpose or simply misread it but I'll give you the benefit of a doubt. It talks about "rising" and "resurgence" not direct causation (so your title is either a mistake or intentionally misleading). And no, it does not prove it but the problem with the sort of argument you are making is that it implies NO correlation just because none was properly found -- that simply means we don't know! Not that it's not true, that it *couldn't* be true... Quite possibly, Facebook may facilitate the spread of syphilis (and thus cause the observed "rise in syphilis" like the actual Telegraph title says) and Craigslist may well facilitate killings, as well as all sort of other crimes. Any casual peruser of craigslist would have to be seriously dimwitted not to realize there are plenty of illegal things listed and it is at best unclear that craigslist is doing what it should to prevent serious crimes.

Delia

(comic) According to Mathew Ingram, Craig Newmark is a trust expert!

2010-03-18T22:47:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE: So Mathew Ingram "forgot" to post my comment -- is he hoping his readers would just eat up his dubious interview? the sad part is that *plenty* of them will; for the rest, he is embarrassing himself and he must know it...D.

MORE: Twitter: (comic) According to Mathew Ingram, Craig Newmark is a trust expert! http://bit.ly/91D5Y1 4 minutes ago via web

Good God, Mathew! (counted but not published at this point, will check later)
(http://gigaom.com/2010/03/18/craig-newmark-on-the-webs-next-big-problem/#)

after the ebay v. craigslist suit (see the AuctionBytes coverage if you haven't already) you use Craig Newmark as a *trust* expert? *lol* Sorry but I can only laugh ~Delia

(aside) NYT: should readers' needs and wants matter?

2010-02-19T19:27:00.000-08:00

MORE

http://mediactive.com/2010/02/17/there-are-no-spoilers-in-news/#comment-1378:

sorry about the delay...

Seth, I see you are tilting at windmills as usual :) As far as I can tell, you are never going to get those things acknowledged... (mostly because they are true... *lol*)

Dan,

I'm not sure if you grossly distorted what I said on purpose but it certainly looks like it...

here is what I said:

"If the NYT ran a poll that showed that *the vast majority* of readers would prefer that info to be segregated somewhere where it could be easily avoided, would that matter to you?

I think it should!" {emphasis just here to make my point]

and here is what you responded to Seth who brought up my post:

"If the NYT doesn’t obey *a small number* of self-deluded readers in this case" {my emphasis]

if at this point, you truly believe that it is laughable that the needs and wants of the users should be taken into consideration (that if the vast majority of long term readers would rather be able to read the paper version of the NYT without giving up the ability to watch the Olympic games without already knowing who won, the almighty NYT should just decline it...), I fear for the well being of your new project (you should have learned this basic lesson when your first project failed -- it's prohibitively expensive not to do so).

Delia

P.S. and let's not pretend the NYT has no financial interest in this... from the short term business POV, they would *love* to plaster that stuff on the front page asap so they would sell more copies of that particular issue. Horrible idea! if that would be pissing off the loyal long term paper readership...I'm having a hard time believing you just don't get this. And to say they are just doing it in the interest of solid journalism! yeah, right... and I got a bridge to sell you! (in Brooklyn); this is the ind of stuff that has been bothering Seth for a long time -- as it should! D.

Dan,

I find it strange that you appear to give no consideration to the wants and, arguably, needs, of the people reading the NYT which should ultimately dictate what's being done about issues like this.

If the NYT ran a poll that showed that the vast majority of readers would prefer that info to be segregated somewhere where it could be easily avoided, would that matter to you?

I think it should!

Delia

(aside) Dan Gillmor's Mediactive: can advertisers be just... told off?

2010-02-12T20:19:00.000-08:00

Dan,

re: "By all means, tell advertisers (and mean it) that they don’t run the news operations."...

how do you *mean it* if advertising is what makes your business work? (wouldn't they know you are bluffing?) you say yourself the advertisers are the main customers because they are the ones doing the heavy paying; what would stop them from turning around and giving their money to those of your competitors who would accommodate them? unless you are talking about some industry wide pact and aren't those destined to fall apart especially under the kind of serious financial troubles we are seeing today?

Delia

the hazards of mixing non-profit with for profit

2010-02-05T19:49:00.000-08:00

Dan,

I'd give the article Seth linked serious thought -- it brings up the kind of issues (IRS issues when you mix non-profit with for profit) I was concerned about when you chose to be adviser for Spot.us -- could be a dangerous thing to have your name associated with.

Delia

(living on craigslist guy) not one of the dummies:)

2010-02-05T19:17:00.000-08:00

UPDATE: looks like Jayson changed his mind and posted my comment -- good:) D.

MORE: surprise, surprise... Jayson didn't publish my post; why could that be? is he hoping for direct help with his project from Craig&co? quite possibly...his project (book, movie, whatever he's hoping for) would probably turn out to be much less candid (and truthful, I fear) if he is after getting such endorsement but it *would* give it a serious boost from the POV of marketability, etc. like it happened for "24 hours on craigslist" (which did have Craig in it, briefly...)

Delia

P.S. oh well... hopefully he got the hint that his estimate of revenue could be better and what is one way to improve it D.

Hi, Jayson!

(http://www.livingcraigslist.com/?p=523&cpage=1#comment-1031)

I'm pleasantly surprised that you didn't just fall head over hills in love with craigslist and became fanatical (*literally*) about it and its owners, like way too many journalists have done before you.

If you want to know more about the profits thing, you may want to try your luck with Peter Zollman of the AIM Group -- he may well give you a freebee copy of his report on this (hint: tell him your story and that you have *journalistic* training; may help or hurt to tell him I sent you to him -- I'm not sure:).

Delia

P.S. good luck with everything and take care! D.

as I was saying.... some people are so far gone

2010-01-29T19:06:00.000-08:00

... it may just be too late

found another one: Howard Owens, and again, not the dumbest person around, *otherwise* :)

(aside) following on twitter: the truth & the fancy

2010-01-28T07:45:00.000-08:00

STILL MORE: twitter: (aside) following on twitter: the truth & the fancy http://bit.ly/9Z5Xfc 16 minutes ago from web

EVEN MORE:

thanks for the invitation, Marcelo! but now that I know how you operate … I know you will find my interesting tweets, whether I follow you or not! *lol*

Delia

P.S. take care!:) D.

MORE:

Marcello: fair enough!

Delia

P.S. tried to find you on twitter; still don’t know how
many people you follow — nothing came up under your name or the name of the website (strange for someone who wants to reach a whole lot of people…) D.

Hi, Marcelo!

(http://www.centerfornewmediastudies.com/2010/01/28/you-should-be-on-twitter-all-day-long/comment-page-1/#comment-125)

How many people do you follow on twitter and do I understand correctly that you don't really read each and all of their twits, you just scan for "interesting stuff," which appears to be mostly leads for people that might be interested in your services and you do this through the search function spending 45 minutes/day at it.

As you describe it, a much larger amount of your time seems to be spent on what appears to be largely self-promotion that you also hope would be interesting to people (*could* be ... although if you do it largely to promote yourself at least some people might regard it as spam).

Delia

P.S. I truly don't get it how could people truthfully follow literally thousands of people on twitter (some of them, *tens* of thousands) without doing little else.

P.P.S. Also, I can't see how you could possibly form a meaningful relationship on Twitter (way too restraining) -- it seems to me you'd have to take it to email and/or phone at some point and eventually meet in person, unless all you mean by "relationship" is getting people to try your services. D.

(craigslist ownership) has Craig Newmark sold all his shares in craigslist?

2010-01-25T23:32:00.000-08:00

MORE: @zennie62 if you truly believe [Craig Newmark] "is no longer the owner" of craigslist, you are little more than his lousy stenographer -bye! about 23 hours ago from web

was meant as a reply to this

STILL MORE: @elretrovisor right! they haven't figured out how to pocket 80% of the profits and hide that from people (see the ebay v. craigslist suit) 27 minutes ago from web in reply to elretrovisor

EVEN MORE: @zennie62 Zennie, it's kind of late in the game to continue to be duped by Craig... ~Delia (http://bit.ly/7vKw39) about 7 hours ago from web in reply to zennie62

MORE: Twitter: (craigslist ownership) has Craig Newmark sold all his craigslist shares or is this just his regular ambiguousBS? http://bit.ly/61Il6G ~Delia about 8 hours ago from web

... or is this just his regular ambiguous BS?

"is no longer the owner" (2nd paragraph, end of 2nd to last sentence)

looks like Zennie 62 was very likely duped into thinking that by Craig's seemingly intentional ambiguity and failure to clarify -- I would have expected people to wisen up after the ebay v. craigslist suit exposed plenty of Craig Newmark's secrets but looks like nothing much has changed...

Delia

P.S. very likely, Craig is just not the *sole* owner (as in not *the* owner) of craigslist (as, on paper, he has not been in a very long time) but he continues to hold the most shares as the ebay v. craigslist law suit made fairly clear. D.

(aside) Dan Gillmor's upcoming book: mediactive

2009-12-27T21:41:00.000-08:00

Dan,

I only took a quick look at it and at this point I only have one general piece of advice: I'd skip the politics! mainly because it's going to guarantee losing plenty of readers that would, otherwise, find your book useful.

Maybe write a different book on that?

Also, I see no good reason for excluding readers basically based on religion (re: Who is This Project Not For?) -- yeah, you'd expect logical people to find that evolution is a much more likely explanation for how we got here but that doesn't stop one of the major players in deciphering the human genome, for instance, from being a devout Christian. No need to be bringing that up, really (people have very strong private feelings about it whether it makes sense or not and would probably take offense).

The only traditionally verboten subject for public conversation you missed is sex. Although, you could have worked it in as a joke: "this book is not for prudes! and don't you dare read it..." :)
*kidding*

Delia

ebay v. craigslist: Newmark and Buckmaster asked ebay to keep the "essentially extorsion" secret

2009-12-09T20:02:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE: twitter

craigscriticism

@agaricus Gary, I hope you are at least casually following the ebay v. craigslist lawsuit -- it's just priceless!:) ~Delia about 1 hour ago from web in reply to agaricus
MORE: Twitter

(ebay v. craigslist) links to Craig Newmark assuring craigslisters ebay only got 25% and none of his equity was sold (http://bit.ly/6KSdcA) 12 minutes ago from web

craigscriticism

@craigoodle *lots* of people should be finding the info about craigslist finally disclosed to the public VERY interesting to say the least:) less than 20 seconds ago from web in reply to craigoodle
...
"Price said Newmark and Buckmaster asked that their payment be kept quiet to prevent the altruistic public image of the company from being tarnished. He said he viewed the payment as "essentially extortion." (3rd paragraph)

looks like my hunch at the time was correct

these 2 link are priceless!

(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=18000876)
#1 Craig assuring craigslisters ebay only had 25%
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=18001900)
#2 Craig denying that *any* of his equity was sold

more truth comes out: craigslist representative had told ebay that Newmark and Buckmaster "may have been looking for a way to cash out" -- say what?

2009-12-08T19:20:00.000-08:00

MORE: twitter: ebay v. craigslist: truth comes out: Newmark and Buckmaster "may have been looking for a way to cash out"-- say *what?* http://bit.ly/5c0PG0 3 minutes ago from web
...
"EBay Deputy General Counsel Brian Levey, who helped handle eBay's purchase of a 28% stake in Craigslist in 2004, said in Delaware Chancery Court Tuesday that a representative for Craigslist shareholders mentioned that the company may be interested in finding equity financing, and that the two remaining shareholders, Craig Newmark and Jim Buckmaster may have been looking for a way to "cash out." (2nd paragraph)

Delia

craigslist: the ebay deal -- finally the truth gets out! (it only took a monster lawsuit)

2009-12-07T14:54:00.000-08:00

MORE:

MORE: twitter: # craigslist: the ebay 16 million deal! valleywag had the right figure Jim Buckmaster finally talks -- 'cause he *has to* http://bit.ly/5FZQL1 4 minutes ago from web

and to think that Valleywag got the number right! 16 million...

"Buckmaster said eBay paid $16 million, which included the rights-of-first-refusal over any sale of Buckmaster's and Newmark's shares and veto rights over mergers and acquisitions."
(2nd part of 2nd paragraph from bottom)

Craig got a house probably worth in the millions that summer... aka "the shack"! *lol*

Delia

P.S. more recent post by Valleywag D.

is Michael Arrington right? Did Craig Newmark advise Wikipedia to have fund raising ads?

2009-11-16T20:10:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE:

thanks, Seth!

we've talked about this in the past and I still believe he could have *sold it* before turning non-profit and there would have probably been no Wikipedia today.

I continue to believe he deserves respect for this, for NOT doing what Craig did, making it a *for profit* and keeping people laboring and in the dark as to what's really going on.

Sure, he's not a "purist" (e.g. I suppose he could have donated all his honoraria to Wikipedia, although it did take a lot of his private time to get to the point where he would be offered anything of the kind) but, as far as I'm concerned, there is really no comparison between what he did and what Craig did.

Delia

P.S. and no! I don't believe Wikipedia should have any ads on it and that banner ad *is* an ad blocked by ad-blocking software

thanks for this link --> very on point! D>

http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2002-March/001605.html

MORE:

*You* can do better than that, Jimmy... You still have my respect for having made and kept Wikipedia a non-profit, (a huge contrast with craigslist) but you are wrong on this one... and if this was indeed Craig's advice that you/Wikipedia took, I'd do without such adviser... ~Delia

P.S. keep it open and honest (it's not worth messing it up after you did the right thing for such a long time) D.

Michael,

I think you are right on this one: it *is* an ad! (a fund raising ad for Wikipedia). Even more obvious than what were, in my opinion, ads for Skype on craigslist -- ostensibly because Craig Newmark *just liked* Skype...-- but I definitely wondered if craigslist was getting paid by Skype for having those links on the site (at the time, when the Skype links were introduced, craigslist was claiming to derive benefits *mostly* from paid ads but has never clarified what other sources of revenue have been). Even if craigslist wasn't getting paid for it, those links were still, in effect, a heck of a lot of ads for Skype!

~Delia

craigslist & CDA immunity: isn't craigslist co-creator of those ads given that it now screens them?

2009-11-14T22:55:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE: TWITTER: craigslist & DMA immunity: isn't craigslist co-author of those ads given that it now screens them? ( http://bit.ly/4xwyXl ) any idea? ~Delia half a minute ago from web

MORE:

sorry about the delay... just posted it! D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/11/15 19:24:00
Subject: Re: Re: RE: digital media blog

You are welcome to post our exchange. I will comment on the issues you raise in my blog shortly

From: dperiod
To: Johnson, David D.
Sent: Sun Nov 15 16:11:05 2009
Subject: Re: RE: digital media blog

the fact that as a result of mounting pressure from AGs, craigslist decided not only to change the name of the category from "erotic" to "adult" but also to *screen the ads prior to publication* (manual review): here is the info in the Boston Globe, for instance:

http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2009/05/14/craigslist_drops_erotic_services_ads/

and here is the post on my blog talking about it:

http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/11/craigslist-cda-immunity-isnt-craigslist.html

Thanks!

Delia

P.S. is it ok to post our email exchanges on my blog? (it would all go in the body of the entry so anybody reading my blog will see your comments -- has worked well in the past, especially if the views differ) D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/11/15 12:35:04
Subject: Re: RE: digital media blog

Delia: What major change are you referring to? Regards, David Johnson

From: dperiod [mailto:dperiod@comcast.net]
Sent: Sunday, November 15, 2009 12:50 AM
To: Johnson, David D.
Subject: digital media blog

Hello!

I found your post re: Dart v. Craigslist helpful but believe it fails to take into consideration a major change in craigslist's involvement in the process of creating those ads. I thought you might want to comment.

Delia

re:
http://www.digitalmedialawyerblog.com/2009/10/dart_v_craigslist_district_cou.html

It certainly appears to be the case! by screening the ads, craigslist now provides *direct assistance* to the users with finalizing the content of those ads prior to publication... (1st tip on how to "stay on the good side of the CDA and criminal law")

Delia

PS. I'll see if David Johnson would like to comment on this. D.

(craigslist prostitution) why did Dart's suit fail are similar suits doomed?

2009-10-27T20:29:00.000-07:00

MORE:

Twitter http://bit.ly/3fYFn2 (craigslist prostitution) why did Dart's suit fail and are similar suits doomed? let me know what you think! ~Delialess than 20 seconds ago from web

charging for adult/erotic ads -- the details

2009-10-21T18:39:00.000-07:00

UPDATE: after a very long confusion as to what was Jim really up to, he has removed my post (the comment number is still on the bottom and it does link to the entry); what a wimp... (but what's new?) D.

MORE:

STILL MORE well... Jim is either asleep or purposely leaving my comment in "moderation" -- will have to move on; I think what's important to understand here is that we just don't know the actual facts; craigslist could easily clarify them but apparently just doesn't want to...

EVEN MORE: my comment on the craigslist blog is still "awaiting moderation"(that's the message I get when I access it): a bit confused since 3 more comments have been posted after mine, so did Jim read my comment or not yet? will give him the benefit of the doubt, hopefully it's going to get clarified soon... D.

MORE: Twitter: craigslist charging for adult/erotic ads -- the details! if anybody *knows* what's going on, please help! ~Delia (http://bit.ly/1iQnT1)2 minutes ago from web
...
ok, lets ask this as nicely as possible and see if Jim clarifies it...

Jim, (http://blog.craigslist.org/2009/10/dart-dismissed/#comment-127993)

Could you please clarify something for me?

When did craigslist *start* charging for "erotic/adult ads" (talks of it hit the news in November 2008 but when was the actual starting date? -- although I have not been able to find the exact date anywhere, there seemed to be a strong inference that it was at some point *after* the beginning of 2009; yet the info in the judgment appears to contradict this); also, in what locations does craigslist currently charge for "adult ads" and/or "erotic ads" and why is there a difference between the fees charged -- $5 versus $10? (surprising info given in the judgment) and did the list of such locations increase since the initial charging? (it would appear so)

thanks!

Delia

craigslist fundamentals: why the AIM group's estimate of revenue is a poor indicator

2009-09-24T18:46:00.000-07:00

The overall revenue masks the fact that craigslist has been adding to the jobs-pay-list and started charging in the very lucrative adult/erotic category. A more meaningful presentation of Zollman's numbers would compare revenue from *the same markets*.

By the time you throw out all revenue from adult/erotic as well as the revenue from jobs in places where craigslist didn't charge last year, craigslist's fundamentals wouldn't look anywhere as good.

They are very likely loosing ground (currently have less paid jobs listings and real estate in the markets where they charged last year when compared with the number of such listings in those same markets this year)

Delia

craigslist revenue: the AIM group's report credibility and limitations

2009-09-21T20:22:00.000-07:00

DELIA: oh... I believe you! It was just very confusing given that I *knew* I saw the word "will", otherwise I would not have given it much importance ("could" is very weak as far as I'm concerned) D.

ANONYMOUS:

I can assure you that the version submitted to the court was the "could" version and you can seek a copy from the court if you wish.

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 24, 2009 10:50 AM

Twitter: @agaricus got it figured out, Gary! ~D.14 minutes ago from web

DELIA: found the other version! it was at a slightly different url address:

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20Website.pdf

as opposed to:

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20August%202009%20.pdf

sorry about the confusion! (the argument section -- see table of contents -- has A through K subsections as opposed to 1 through 3 in the other version)

MORE: Twitter

(Dart v. Craigslist) CATW's amicus brief Did anybody followed the link to amicus brief on CATW's site last evening or before? please help!2 minutes ago from web

@agaricus Gary, I could really use your help! did you follow the link to the amicus brief on CATW's website before contacting Peter Zollman?2 minutes ago from web

DELIA: that's wild! they are the same NOW (just looked), although as recently as last evening the two links had different versions. The initial one I first saw may have been a prior draft but that's the one CATW linked to when the item got on Google news so I suspect plenty of people saw that and went with it), not only for the spot I referred to -- they had a different organization for the arguments (the sentence I pointed out was not at all *the only* difference)

ANONYMOUS: "I am sorry but that just is not true. The brief that was submitted to the court says "could" as does the brief on CATW's web site at:

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20August%202009%20.pdf

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 24, 2009 8:56 AM

DELIA: yeah, those are the links and... it's NOT the same stuff...

the passages talked about, although worded identically otherwise are qualitatively different where it counts, as I explained bellow.

1). II. ARGUMENTS OF AMICUS CURIAE

K. Craigslist's Profitability, Power and Corporate Responsibility
(end of 1st paragraph of subsection)

"Projected over a year it is fair to estimate that craigslist's global profits from its adult/erotic services ads *will" constitute over half of its profits" [my emphasis]

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20August%202009%20.pdf

2). II. ARGUMENTS OF AMICUS CURIAE

3. WOMEN AND CHILDREN ARE TRAFFICKED FOR PROSTITUTION THROUGH CRAIGSLIST, WHICH PROFITS

(middle of last paragraph on 2nd to last page of that subsection)

"Projected over a year it is fair to estimate that craigslist's global profits from its adult/erotic services ads *could" constitute over half of its profits" [my emphasis]

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20Aug%202009.pdf

STILL MORE: thanks! got two anonymous comments, the second shortly after the first; it's unclear if it's the same person or two different ones (I wish anonymous posters would be given numbers such as Anonymous 1, Anonymous 2 etc.)

(1st comment)

This is the brief that was submitted to the court:
http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20Aug%202009.pdf

This is the Sheriff's complaint from March:
http://beckermanlegal.com/Lawyer_Copyright_Internet_Law/cookcounty_craigslist_090305.pdf

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 23, 2009 7:14 AM

(2nd comment)

The brief posted on CATW's web site is the correct version submitted to the court Aug. 6, 2009

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20August%202009%20.pdf

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 23, 2009 7:17 AM

EVEN MORE:(Dart v. Craigslist) CATW's amicus brief - which form was actually submitted? what was the exact wording?help! (http://tiny.cc/kPi0F) ~Delia3 minutes ago from web

MORE: if anybody else is confused about it, it's unclear to me which version of the amicus brief did CAWA submit: there is a significant wording difference ("will" vs. "could") between the one posted on their website (which I linked to and was familiar with) and the one anonymous linked to. "Will" is a very definite statement, while "could" is as weak as it can get (I mean, pretty much *anything* could be the case...)

As I told Gary Wolf, I don't think we'll really know what's going on with craigslist until their books are open to the public. The host of issues brought up by the AIM's group estimate of craigslist's revenue reinforces this belief.

Again, I have not been able to take a look at the report myself so I don't really know all that is in it. I would hope an explanation of its great limitations is given upfront -- in fact, I believe these limitations should be pointed out to anybody interested in purchasing and/or using the report. I somehow assumed that such a report would go through the equivalent of a pier review but that does not seem to be the case.

And anonymous is right to point out that Peter Zollman has expressed personal opinions that appear to make him a less than ideal person to do the counting -- maybe he should have recused himself?

If anonymous is correct and Chicago alone brings 1 mill a year, the whole thing would, at first, seem to be bogus (if the numbers given by Peter Zollman cannot be trusted). But when were the two different countings done? If one (for the Dart v. Craigslist law suit) was *before* the changes and beginning to charge and the second - Zollman's -- *after* the changes they could both be accurate.

Another problem is the fact that I would not expect the number of ads in those category to be constant from month to month: there would have very likely been a drastic drop right after changes were implemented, and a steady growth thereafter.

Aside from this, if the AIM group is estimating *the 2009 calendar year revenue* for craigslist (which appears to be the case), it seems to mistakenly treat the adult/erotic as bringing in revenue for *12 month* (Peter Zollman quote towards bottom of previous entry on this blog)-- craigslist has not been charging in that category from the beginning of the year so craigslist's revenue for 2009 would be overstated by a significant amount.

Now, if we are concerned with the adult/erotic *share* of craigslist's revenue, you would have to look a year out at least from *when craigslist started charging*, otherwise the comparison with the total revenue for a year would be deceiving. A much more accurate estimated would probably be obtained if the "transition period" would be thrown out of the calculation altogether.

Also, I have no clue why did Peter Zollman count automotive ads (quote towards the end of my prior entry on this blog, when he talks about why the estimate was conservative) -- although craigslist has been steadily adding to the jobs-pay-list in recent times, it has not charged in the automotive categories *anywhere*, nor is it reasonable to believe it will by the end of the year. So how could those numbers be at all relevant?

re: craigslist profiting from erotic ads even before they were charging... yeah, I thought so too, especially when I saw the first evidence of just how important a share of craigslist's overall traffic was brought by those ads and more recently when I saw Jim Buckmaster seemingly unhappy about loosing those ads to other sites...

Delia

P.S. As always, further comments are encouraged from all parties and all points of view! D.

Peter Zollman on the reasons the AIM group's estimate of craigslist's revenue from erotic/adult services is conservative

2009-09-15T15:13:00.000-07:00

MORE

ANONYMOUS COMMENT: Thanks, Anonymous! ~D.

"Delia,

One aspect to think about that I do not think was explained/captured in the report was how web traffic allows craigslist to charge up to $75 for housing/job ads. If you read the original complaint in Dart v. Craigslist, that complaint was made before craigslist started charging for erotic and adult ads. In other words, even if Craigslist did not charge for adult/erotic, the fact that those sections drive traffic to its web site allows it to charge $75 for jobs. So it was profiting before it was charging for ads. How much is very hard to say, but critics will say that this is why craiglist does not want to do anything about erotic/adult ads."

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 21, 2009 2:00 PM

STILL MORE: Thanks to those who sent reassuring words but... I'm not done with it yet:) Twitter: (AIM group report) Did craigslist' revenue *really* grow last year? last call for comments, will post my take on it tomorrow evening ~Delia half a minute ago from web

MORE: Twitter: (craigslist revenue, AIM Group's report) @agaricus Gary, was it bogus? did you check for obvious signs? please help! ~D http://tiny.cc/PVa249 minutes ago from web

CORRECTION BY ANONYMOUS: "Just to clarify, Chicago alone brings about 1 million per year (not per month) based on adult ads alone." Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 16, 2009 9:24 AM ... Thanks, Anonymous! D.

MORE: Twitter: (craigslist's revenue from adult/erotic services, AIM Group's report) was Peter Zollman biased? please help! ~Delia (http://tiny.cc/PVa24)3 minutes ago from web

ANONYMOUS RESPONSE, AGAIN:
"Dear Delia,

CATW did not base its projection on the AIM report alone. On one day in Chicago alone I have counted 300 ads for adult services. So Chicago alone gives craigslist more than one million a month, easily. In a smaller city like Houston, it is more like 100 ads per day. Even taking only 10 major cities, that is much much more than 2.5 million per month. CATW stated very clearly in its brief submitted to the District Court of Illinois:

"Projected over a year, it is fair to estimate that craigslist's global revenues from adult/erotic services could provide over half its profits."

Here is the link:

http://www.prostitutionresearch.com/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20Aug%202009.pdf

Now if you are going to talk about bias and "concern" about estimates how about Zollman, who on the one hand blogs about how absurd it is that the Attorney Generals should wish to hold craigslist accountable, but on the other hand purports to write an objective, "conservative" report detailing craigslist's profits from adult/erotic services."

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 16, 2009 8:29 AM

Thanks, again, Anonymous! I'll give Zollman a chance to answer this first. (might take a while; will post if I get something or respond myself if Zollman declines) D.

DELIA, AGAIN: sentence in the amicus brief that suggests that CATW *did* in fact calculate as Anonymous suggested (times two) and Peter Zollman hinted at the bottom of this entry that it was incorrect: "According to the report prepared by the AIM Group and released on Jun 10, 2009, craigslist's projected revenue from *"erotic" and "adult services" combined* for one month only amount to only over five million".[my emphasis] (end of page 29 of amicus brief) D.

MORE: Twitter: craigslist's revenue from erotic/adult compared with total: was CATW's projected yearly estimate fair? please help! (http://tiny.cc/PVa24)half a minute ago from web

DELIA: Although, we are ultimately concerned with *the ratio* of craigslist's yearly revenue from adult/erotic ads to craigslist's toatal revenue from all ads: CATW says, in their amicus brief, that it is fair to project the estimates so that more than half of the money is brought by erotic/adult ads.(end of page 29 of the amicus brief)

I suppose that is still possible, but it would have to have a different justification than the one Anonymous gave, given that Peter Zollman says he did not count the erotic/adult ads in other markets.

Further comments encouraged from all parties and points of view! I was hoping we could get somebody from CATW so they can clarify their position but no luck so far -- if anybody could help with that, I'd appreciate it! D.

ANONYMOUS RESPONSE: "Both erotic and adult, according to that report, made over 2.5 million a
month, each. That means times two. Adult is only for the USA, erotic is for sex trafficking in Vietnam, etc. You should look at the web site you are writing about. The report does not explain this well, because craiglist does not explain it well, and it does not wish to."

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 15, 2009 6:14 PM

Thanks again, Anonymous! As far as I can tell, craigslist does not currently charge for "erotic services" in places like Vietnam (did as much as I could to check that, short of posting a fake ad, which I would not do); will they charge in those markets within a year of starting to charge in the U.S.? (as to count for the yearly projection?) possibly... although I believe it it reasonable to assume they would not be quite that dumb! but *could be*... However, I believe it is important to keep the estimates/projections/etc. within reason, otherwise it appears to backfire and become meaningless at some point as I said bellow.

It is my current understanding that Peter Zollman (please see his explanation of why their estimate is conservative bellow) did not count those ads in markets outside of U.S. If this is correct (and I'm sorry but I cannot get a copy of the report for my editorial use without paying for it or giving up my privacy, both things I decided a long time ago not to do), it is unfortunate that CATW misread the report. And I do hope that was the case, that they did not misinterpret it *on purpose*.

If the report was unclear, you'd think they could/should have clarified things with Zollman before putting the info in the amicus brief to make sure they were using his report fairly. This would have also made sure it did not backfire which could ruin everything they are trying to do. I regard CATW's not giving Zollman's conservative estimate ($30 mill, not $60 mill, as in his hint to you bellow) as a mistake given that I believe Zollman's conservative estimate would be more than enough to show there is good reason for serious concern.

Delia

MORE: I don't know if it's just me (Delia) but it seems to become meaningless at some point if it's all a matter of what people *want* to infer... D

"We’ve stated unequivocally that we think our estimate on Craigslist’s adult services (previously “erotic services”) is fairly conservative, because we did not count ads in all markets (as we did with recruitment and automotive). Thus, you’re welcome to infer if you wish that revenue in that category is $60 million or $90 million or whatever. But we don’t."

from email exchange with Peter Zollman on September 15th, 2009 (published with his permission)

also a hint for anonymous from prior entry: "$2.55 million a month times 12 months, by my calculator, is $30.6 million annually. So I think your $60 million is off by a factor of two."

from email exchange with Peter Zollman on September 15th, 2009 (published with his permission)

(I, Delia, agree but feel free to submit a rebuttal comment, Anonymous -- from prior entry -- or anybody else)

Did CATW misrepresent the AIM group's findings about craigslist revenue from adult/erotic services?

2009-09-11T01:36:00.000-07:00

MORE (Peter Zollman's hint to Anonymous and reasons why the AIM group's estimate is conservative)

EVEN MORE: Twitter: @ptrueman Patrick, I'm wondering if you can help -- Gary Wolf of Wired says
CATW was wrong in the amicus brief (http://tiny.cc/hmVY9) D.1 minute ago from web in reply to ptrueman

STILL MORE: got an anonymous post -- take it with a grain of salt; thanks, anonymous!

The AIM Report estimates that erotic earns $2,550,000, a month, and adult similarly earns $2,550,000 per month. That this will amount to over 60 million a year, not taking into account the explosion in the number of ads in cities all over the map, means that it is a fair estimate.

Posted by Anonymous to craigslist criticism at September 15, 2009 8:29 AM

EVEN MORE: now *that* didn't work... I mean I got an answer last Friday --sorry about the delay --(thanks if anybody helped out with that) but no useful info; just to clarify for everybody I derive no profit from my online presence, so I do not intend to spend money on gathering info nor do I advise anybody who is just curious about craigslist to do it...D.

MORE: Twitter: Did CATW misrepresent AIM group's findings about craigslist revenue from
adult/erotic services? --please help! (http://tiny.cc/313js) ~Delia 2 minutes ago from web

If so, I will not use them as sources in the future; it was brought to my attention by Gary Wolf (part of his first comment, well, actually second comment but 1st published within my prior entry on this blog) although I took his giving 120 million as craigslist revenue (60 mill times two) when Peter Zollman's article was talking about craigslist hitting 100 mill in revenue as a red flag that Gary may have been mistaken himself in some way.

To clarify things, I tried to contact Peter Zollman directly but so far no luck.

Here's what my request was:

"Hello!

I'm hoping you could clarify something for me. Did CATW misrepresent your findings about craigslist revenue from erotic/adult services in their amicus brief? Or were they correct?

re: "Projected over a year, it is fair to estimate that craigslist's global profits from its adult/erotic services ads will constitute over half of its overall profits"

(end of 29th page of the brief)

http://action.web.ca/home/catw/attach/Craigslist%20Amicus%20Brief%20-%20Website.pdf

Thank you!

Delia"

if anybody can help out and bring this to his attention I'd appreciate it D.

Gary Wolf's follow-up comments -- in full glory!

2009-09-09T15:17:00.000-07:00

MORE: agaricus@ Gary, I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt -- don't make me regret it! ~Delia (http://tiny.cc/BisaD) will check tomorrow eveninghalf a minute ago from web

Gary,

I'll give you the benefit of a doubt although good chunks of your follow-up comments look like personal attacks to me and I really don't have to put up with them or publish them on my blog for that matter. Nor do I think they are flattering to you but since you insist I publish them, I will. So please abstain from those if you would like me to publish any more of your comments on my blog.

As I previously told you, I believe you would benefit a lot from taking a break from this topic for now and returning to it at a later time when you could truly take a fresh look at it. I would be willing to continue this per your request at the point when you realize that those eight things I listed are fundamental assumptions. We don't have to agree that they are probably false – as I believe they are -- just that they are assumptions. If you do not agree that those are assumptions -- that, at this point, they are not positively knowns or unknowns -- there is little point to continuing this from my side as I don't believe much could be accomplished.

If you just want to go ahead and check the things I put down – be my guest! It's a public blog... And you may well find that some of the sources I quoted were fallible. I'd be surprised if over the years I've written this blog, all of my sources would be absolutely infallible. Heck! I have certainly not redone the data analysis done by AIM Group, for instance, so I cannot vouch that they are absolutely correct.

I referenced CWTA's amicus brief and if they were wrong, then my source was wrong. But the link is there for anybody to check and I gave the exact location on the page to make it as easy as possible. Still, unless those sources were absolute frauds it's hard to see how it would make that much difference -- the fact of the matter is that a big chunk of craigslist's revenue comes from erotic/adult ads and even Craig has acknowledged that many of those are probably prostitution.

As far as I can tell, unless craigslist's books are open to the public (as a result or law suits or much less likely, voluntarily), the big issues will remain unknown – they are NOT the checkable ones. The major flaw in your article was presenting very important things about craigslist that are unknown as being undoubtedly known. And until you get beyond that, I don't see that much progress can be made.

Delia

P.S. Just to clarify, my posts are not intended as “tips” -- they are just my opinion of things with links to my sources when the topic is amenable to it. D.

Here are your 2 follow-up comments unedited (your first comment published in the body of the initial blog entry was also unedited)

Reading your response, I have to note the absence of any new information, testimony, observations, etc. to support your implications of bad conscience on Newmark's part. Just for the record, saying "I've committed myself in writing to the story as I understand it" means that I've told everything I know that I think is important, exactly as I believe it to be the case. The key words here are "committed myself in writing." This means that if I am wrong, and any evidence emerges that I am wrong, my error will be visible for all to see. You repeatedly ask leading questions, as if there is some hidden wrong that it is my responsibility to expose, without offering any evidence to support it. That's effective over the short term - certainly I read your posts with interest when reporting the story. But after many requests to provide something concrete to back up your negative remarks, you still produce nothing that a responsible person would publish in any forum where he had to take moral responsibility for his statements. This makes me conclude that there's nothing here of interest. But it's only a provisional conclusion, and as I said in my first comment, I'm certainly willing to listen if you ever come up with anything.

I should say that the one fact you stated in your first post is incorrectly cited and almost certainly wrong. The footnote to the amicus brief you cite in support of your assertion that craigslist makes more than half it revenue on adult/erotic ads references the AIM report. I remembered looking at this report but didn't remember this figure, and I've now had a chance to look at it again. The AIM estimate for adult/erotic is about 29 million, not 60 million. That's just for what its worth: I do not morally condemn craigslist for taking these ads.

Posted by Gary Isaac Wolf to craigslist criticism on September 1, 2009 8:48 PM

Dear craigslist criticism,

I have checked the figures you cite directly with the source listed in the footnote of the CATW brief. That source, Peter Zollman of the AIM group, also projected his numbers out over a year. This is a somewhat minor point, but given that it is the only checkable fact that you cite, it is significant that you got it wrong.

You might sensibly ask why I even bother with this conversation. The answer: a long history of getting useful information from biased sources like yourself leads me to treat your assertions as a kind of "tip." That's the beginning of the process, not the end of it. In writing about cl, I will try to track down any claim that you make that can plausibly be tracked down. But it is hardly my fault if the evidence doesn't back up your allegations. If you ever have any support for any of your claims I would be happy to try and corroborate it. I'm pretty dogged, and if you care about the truth you ought to treat this offer as something valuable.

It doesn't bother me that you publish these vague accusations anonymously; plenty of people do this, sometimes for good reason. But this doesn't give you a free pass from having your claims evaluated. So far, nothing you say pans out, by normal (or even minimal) standards. That's my conclusion, reached in good faith, and with a continued openness to being corrected if, someday, you ever do have evidence for what you say.

Finally, I would like to challenge you, since good faith is one of your values, to publish this comment unedited.
Sincerely,
Gary Wolf
Contributing editor, Wired

Posted by Gary Isaac Wolf to craigslist criticism on September 9, 2009 10:41 AM

(craigslist profits/revenue) meaningful comparison of overall figures and figures from adult/erotic services

2009-09-09T04:11:00.000-07:00

I did not think most people would need this clarification (certainly not journalists) but the few exchanges I had with Gary Wolf of Wired made me think I better put it down.

#1 -- given the huge difference of magnitude between craigslist's profits and their expenses, the figures for revenue and profits can be used interchangeably (of course, they are not *technically* the same but it's a fair approximation since the expenses are negligible)

#2 -- since craigslist started charging for adult/erotic services less than a year ago, CATW fairly estimated the revenue/profits for adult/erotic services in their amicus brief by projecting it over a year (so it can thus be meaningfully compared with the yearly overall revenue/ profits) http://tiny.cc/BgGeR)

Delia

Gary Wolf tells the truth but holds on to many assumptions

2009-08-29T17:44:00.000-07:00

MORE

EVEN MORE: As promised, I read your follow-up post. I continue to be very disappointed. As I do not find that your follow-up comment adds to the discussion in any way, I'm sorry but I don't see the point in publishing it or continuing any of this -- Good luck & good bye! D.

MORE: my answer

Gary,

re: "I've committed myself in writing to the story as I understand it."

That would have been perfectly fine, would you have written it as such. That's not at all how your article reads -- at no point is there any hint that this may not be what is actually going on. That's why I thought that pointing out those assumptions would be really helpful.

But I'm really disappointed if you don't even realize those are important assumptions at the core of your article -- you are kidding yourself if you truly believe that you were able to "confirm" those things or that those things are "known" or knowable at this point. (e.g. "Newmark was wedded to the idea that craigslist was a community service." 2nd page, middle of 4th paragraph) There are strong reasons to believe they are false and I explained as much as I could in a short post but the truth of the matter is that we don't really know at this point -- we can't! unless you have some way to read Craig's mind and I'm sorry but I don't believe that you do. As I said before, you appear to just believe him! That's fine, I suppose, as long as you acknowledge it.

"The remainder of your post has a lot to say about what the real intentions of craigslist are. But how, in good conscience, can I take this speculation as anything but one person's unsupported opinion?"

I'm not sure what you mean by "the remainder of my post" : I listed eight core assumptions -- that was it! Gary, you presented the intentions of craigslist in your article -- without indicating any doubt! You apparently got those things straight from the horse's mouth...sorry, Craig's mouth. Whether it was directly from him or by believing many others that just believed him is irrelevant. So how can you in good conscience present Craig's story as "the truth"?

Regardless, I do believe you deserve a lot of praise for the things you got right (three major ones!)

Delia

P.S. If you ever change your mind about the things we disagree about, I'd love to hear about it! D.

EVEN MORE: Gary's comment

Delia - A lot of reporting goes into a story that is not described in the piece. It would be very boring to into detail about who I talked to and what they said, when the upshot was to confirm a lot of what is already known (or, as you say, "assumed"). I've committed myself in writing to the story as I understand it. I think if you are going to tell me I'm wrong, you ought to say what, exactly, I'm wrong about, and how you know I'm wrong. I'm willing to be corrected, if you have anything to offer. But all I see here is a set of leading questions that imply nefarious goings-on, unsupported by facts or evidence. The exception is your assertion that more that half its profits (I think you meant revenue) come from the adult/erotic ads. I did not talk about this in the story, but I'm going to publish the correct estimate when I have it.

The remainder of your post has a lot to say about what the real intentions of craigslist are. But how, in good conscience, can I take this speculation as anything but one person's unsupported opinion?

Posted by Gary Isaac Wolf to craigslist criticism at August 31, 2009 3:41 PM

STILL MORE: @agaricus Gary, just read your comment for my blog --I'll have an answer for you tomorrow evening; wil publish bot comments at the same timeabout 1 hour ago from web

MORE: Twitter: @agaricus Gary, here's the list I promised (http://tiny.cc/yiymq) ~Delia6 minutes ago from web in reply to agaricus

Gary,

As I already told you (on Twitter) , I believe you did a marvelous job figuring out the truth about craigslist's "customer service." You also did a very good job on describing the retarded development of the site and the modus operandi -- "low-key dictatorship." Not surprisingly, you got plenty of criticism from "Craig's friends."

Anyways, here is the list of assumptions I promised:

#1. Craig's story of craigslist is true (you appear to just believe it, I see no evidence of any doubt on your side at any point; much of the article, aside from your accurate description of the customer service, underdevelopment of the site and the mode of operation, should really be prefaced by "Craig sez")

#2. Craig's persona is authentic (it is funny and entertaining at times but it's very hard to believe it's real -- again I see no evidence of doubt on your side)

#3 craigslist is on solid legal footing (even though more than half of its current profits come from adult/erotic ads (http://tiny.cc/BgGeR) -- many of them illegal --, the law requires craigslist to remove ads once they are made aware they are illegal and craigslist has nowhere enough employees to be able to do this)

#4 the craigslist profits are really sitting in the compay's accounts waiting to be used for expansion -- adding more cities -- (although craigslist is quietly and steadily adding more cities to the pay list even though current profits would more then suffice for offering a craigslist site for each and every city in the world)

#6 "the ambiance of neglect is not a way to extract more profit" (although this is the undeniable direct effect)

#7 the intention is not to maximize profits in the long run by keeping expenses as low as possible while expanding as much as possible and quietly and steadily adding cities to the pay list

#8. it would be no problem if craigslist got sold at some point (although craigslist was really built by the community under the constant assurance that it would not be sold)

Delia

(aside) Mediactive; Dan Gillmor's future book

2009-08-23T19:22:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE:

Seth, I see no good reason to give up my anonymity when deriving no benefits from my online presence -- I believe I should be entitled to privacy.

Dan, do you ever just read what people say? I mean the vast majority of them choose anonymity online unless they have a good reason not to (as in, they hope to make money off this and building "a name" is important to them). I'm afraid you end up missing some of the best stuff if you just assume the worst because it's anonymous... (I was hoping you would have moved away from this by now but looks like nothing has changed:)...

Delia

MORE:

Seth, what I meant to say was that you have received baseless personal attacks from some in power. I believe your experience with this is a strong argument *against* volunteering one's identity online. As long as you are not doing anything wrong, it's really nobody's business WHO you are, *personally*... D.

STILL MORE:

Dan,

Seth's experience with it is a very good example as to why those who are not making money off this should NOT disclose their full name online, regardless of how much they are pressured to do it.

Anonymous baseless personal attacks are one thing (most people don't give much credence to those) but the same sort of attacks from those currently in power are a very different story.

Delia

EVEN MORE:

Seth: you are welcome!

Dan:

re: 'Seth, [...] Your critiques (to which you *honorably sign your name*)' [my emphasis]

I was hoping you had, by now, given up on the absurd notion that giving someone's full name online is the 'honorable' thing to do -- it contradicts your whole idea of a democratized media: it shouldn't matter *who* is saying it!

And pushing people to give up their privacy is NOT the honorable thing to do as far as I'm concerned. D.

MORE:

Dan,

re: "help persuade passive consumers of media to become active users"

The main problem I see with your approach is that most people don't have much time to spend on this nor would it be wise for them to spend the amount of time it would take to become sophisticated users on a volunteer basis (Seth can expand on this in great detail and I believe he is right).

I would not call the demand "crappy". That's like a business calling the customers lousy because they are not interested in spending a great deal of their own time making the product work. I fault the business, not the customers -- they are just acting rationally.

I wish we could fast forward to the end of this period in journalism and see clearly just how odd it all is -- how many of the fundamental assumptions are just outlandish! To some extent, I'd like to be awakened what it's all over: when the importance of striving for objectivity is rediscovered and those who profit from news actually deliver balanced news that you can use.

Delia

Dan, (awaiting moderation -- my 1st post on this blog)
http://mediactive.com/2009/08/03/amazon-drm-and-demands/comment-page-1/#comment-234

Seth brought it to my attention a while back that you moved your blogging here. I don't know that I have anything new to say on a regular basis -- I feel that I've pretty much said it all on your old blog.

For instance, it should be no secret that I believe you are wrong to encourage *for profits* (as opposed to non-profits) to step in and set up a marketplace in situations where the real value would be built by the community (re:your blog entry,'Needed: real-time media auction system').

Anyways, good luck with your book! I don't know what you have in mind exactly, seems like a moving target (if you are very specific it would probably be obsolete by the time you publish it) but certain strategies should be useful even if the media landscape changes drastically in relatively short time.

It seems to me that most people could use good advice on how to do an adequate job at keeping up with relevant media without spending an inordinate amount of time on it.

Delia

New York Times reference to SC AG v. craigslist

2009-08-22T18:43:00.000-07:00

MORE: Twitter:

New York Times reference to SC AG v. craigslist: just sloppy or intentionally misleading? http://tiny.cc/EBJvt17 minutes ago from web

prior link; craigslist expands 25% but 'it is conceivable' that Craig has no idea! --right, Susan!he's busy twittering to Squirrel and such 9 minutes ago from web
...
just sloppy or intentionally misleading?

Brad,

Your story about the SC AG is not up to date -- I find that linking to it (in the first line of this article) without mentioning the current developments misleads the readers.

Delia

(http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/21/craigslist-expands-coverage-of-cities-by-25-percent/#comment-313987)

the interviews continue to resemble PR jobs

2009-06-14T22:04:00.000-07:00

MORE: (7th comment)

it seems to me that Christine is just trying to adapt to the situation -- make the best of what transpired -- but actually being "cool with the outcome" would contradict what Peter said; more details: "Very powerful actors have entered the nonprofit ecosystem and created something that already existed, that is blooming, is growing, and has to accommodate a new reality," (Peter Deitz, 5th paragraph, same article you linked)

Delia

STILL MORE:

JD, (5th comment)

sorry about the delay and sorry I didn't make it clear; the comment-by-Delia hyperlink links to the relevant entry on my blog

the "Jim" I referred to is Jim Fruchterman, who interviewed Craig Newmark regarding AllforGood

the criticism -- which I feel both of you should have addressed -- is in the article you linked at the end of your entry : An Obama-Inspired Volunteer-Recruitment Web Site Will Soon Debut

AllforGood has been criticized for "duplicating efforts charities already had under way, and putting significant pressure on groups to participate to help carry out Obama's agenda". (4th paragraph)

Social Actions, for instance, already had an open source initiative similar to that of AllforGood, according to Peter Deitz, Social Actions' founder . (5th paragraph)

Delia

EVEN MORE:

Twitter: interviews with Craig Newmark continue to resemble PR jobs (http://tiny.cc/MRF1W)18 minutes ago from web

MORE:
(http://www.socialbrite.org/2009/06/14/all-for-good-a-craigslist-for-service/comment-page-1/#comment-54)

Same comment as for Jim, even more surprised given that you referenced the article (and you presumably read the criticism). D.

...
Jim,
(http://benetech.blogspot.com/2009/06/craig-newmark-beneblog-interview.html)

I'm disappointed that you have not managed to ask any real question. For instance, AllforGood has been criticized for "duplicating efforts charities already had under way, and putting significant pressure on groups to participate to help carry out Obama's agenda". (4th paragraph)

re: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31325183/ns/us_news-giving/

Delia

P.S. take care, anyways! D.

(aside) time for a non-profit Twitter?

2009-06-10T20:47:00.000-07:00

Seth, (4th comment)

As usual, I think an honest non-profit could and should bury them! People wouldn't put up with all the non-sense (ego stroking and more or less obvious commercial efforts), waste of time and resources if a true neutral grounds platform for conversation existed.

Delia

why did craigslist make an about-face? what EFF (Zimmerman) isn't telling...

2009-05-19T03:52:00.000-07:00

Twitter: what @EFF (Zimmerman) isn't telling: craigslist HAS TO remove the ads and "self-policing has little or no impact" http://tinyurl.com/ousx4z7 minutes ago from web

...

of course you can never know these things for sure but craigslist has the legal responsibility to remove illegal ads if they are made aware of them: the SC AG did just that and gave them reasonable time to remove them (10 days); regardless of whether or not craigslist would have been found criminally guilty of facilitating prostitution (which is nowhere as unlikely as craigslist sycophants, such as EFF, claim) craigslist would have still been legally responsible for not having removed those ads within reasonable time... so they thought better of it... and THEN demanded an apology! *lol* ridiculous craigslist PR as usual....

Delia

P.S. in case you are wondering what about craigslist's (bogus) claim of "self-policing," the Illinois AG has proven just how empty it really is... (end of 7th paragraph) D.

(aside) is Twitter more democratic than regular blogging?

2009-05-08T19:28:00.000-07:00

Seth, (9th comment)

Twitter appears to be more democratic than regular blogging -- the chance of a random person to be heard seems better.

I found it hard to believe that not long after I joined I got an invitation to go on a radio talk show to talk about craigslist. And, no... I didn't do it but my ideas made it on the show -- a lot more than I could say for having previously blogged about craigslist for years.

But I agree that these sort of things should not be commercial enterprises (the real assets are the people who actually built the following and they are the ones getting sold).

Delia

(Donna Jou) parents calling for craigslist preventing measures

2009-05-08T06:14:00.000-07:00

Twitter: (Donna Jou) parents calling for craigslist preventing measures such as identifying known sex offenders (http://tinyurl.com/ccvyw7)will they?

is craigslist guilty of negligence in connection with wrongful death cases?

2009-05-08T05:48:00.000-07:00

Twitter: is craigslist guilty of negligence for failing to take needed measures?e.g. in wrongful death cases; what do you think? http://tiny.cc/sk87c3 minutes ago from web
...
is craigslist guilty of negligence for failing to take obviously needed measures in connection with wrongful death cases?

Delia

EFF continues to defend obsolete legal rationale

2009-05-08T05:05:00.000-07:00

UPDATE: in a cowardish move (so it seems to me), Jim Buckmaster "moderated" against my comment (didn't fit the party line, I guess..) D.

Twitter: EFF continues to defend obsolete legal rationale: the internet is way past its infancy -way overdue for an update! http://tinyurl.com/ponfkl14 minutes ago from web
...
re: "If site operators were forced to screen all third party contributions under risk of civil or criminal penalty, the Internet would lose many of the vibrant services that have made it so dynamic."

EFF continues to defend obsolete legal rationale: that protection was given when the internet was in its infancy -- way overdue for an update! (sites should be required to spend a reasonable amount on preventive measures *given their profits* -- craigslist appears to insist on maintaining huge profits and extremely low expenses no matter what ...)

Delia

(http://blog.craigslist.org/2009/05/eff-ags-have-no-case/#comment-62162)

(comic relief) Jim calls the shape-up-or-else meeting with the AGs "cordial"!

2009-05-08T04:47:00.000-07:00

Twitter: (comic relief) what does Jim call the shape-up-or-else meeting with the AGs? "cordial"! *lol* (http://tinyurl.com/ppnxup)28 minutes ago from web
...
Chris, In case you haven't noticed, Jim is using the craigslist blog as a PR tool -- ridiculous PR at times... (e.g. calling the shape-up-or-else meeting with the AGs "cordial" *lol* ) ~Delia
(http://blog.craigslist.org/2009/05/eff-ags-have-no-case/#comment-62119)

sources of profit and such

2009-04-29T18:58:00.000-07:00

sorry, Frank -- I don't think I'll ever change my mind. Let me know if you need more info. (I could track down the sources for recent estimates etc.) ~Delia

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/04/29 00:51:32
Subject: Re: RE: RE: RE: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Yeah. We’ve been talking about it on the radio a lot. We’d love to have you on sometime, if you ever reconsider.

From: dperiod [mailto:dperiod@comcast.net]
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 12:38 AM
To: Frank Morano
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re: Radio Appearance t

Hi again, Frank! quietly expanding the pay list for jobs and charging for apartment listings in New York City (for now...) . Lowest recent estimate for the year was 80 mill or so; are you just curious or you need sources and such? D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/04/28 23:58:15
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Where do they make money from? Are there any estimates of what they actually make?

"does [craigslist] promote prostitution and endanger the safety of its users?"

2009-04-24T17:24:00.000-07:00

Twitter: answered Frank Morano's questions (http://tiny.cc/cvlqF) ~Delia21 minutes ago from web

MORE:

thanks! it's up to you if you want to mention it or not -- I'm just glad I could help. you are welcome! D.

----- Original message -----

Sent: 2009/04/24 22:02:07
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

This is great. Do you want us to mention your website on the air or the fact that you provided this info. Let me know if you chang your mind about coming on the air.

Thanks again.

Frank

STILL MORE:

You are welcome! Here is how I see it:

1). What's wrong with Craigslist?

while claiming to be "non-commercial," appears to be a cash cow (estimated huge annual profits and apparently extremely limited expenses most evident in nowhere adequate customer service -- ridiculously low number of employees given user base -- and site development -- hopelessly antiquated)

2) Does Craigslist turn a blind eye to illegal activities like prostitution?

it certainly looks like it... by all indication it self handicaps itself by refusing to allocate reasonable resources (given their profits) to combating the problem and refusing to at least modify its "erotic services" (the name itself makes posters believe the category is intended for prostitution! no such thing as legal "erotic service" -- massages and legal escorts are non-sexual)

3) What could they and what should they be doing differently to police this type of activity?

I don't think "policing" is the right word here -- they need to spend adequate resources (*given their profits*) to address the problem -- this may well be a legal question clarified by one of the ongoing law suits (how much should they be spending on this, given their profits?) nobody could reasonably ask them to go bankrupt doing this... -- these problems can never be *completely* eradicated -- but in the same time craigslist should not be allowed to spend close to nothing and walk away with huge profits every year...

4) How dangerous is it to meet someone on craigslist, be it a prostitute or just a regular date?

the risk appears to go up sharply as time passes -- you hear more and more complaints even for regular dates -- , due at least in part to craigslist's refusing to really address the problems (basically just saying they are sorry about what happened but vowing not to change)

5) If you do meet someone on craigslist, what steps should you take to guarantee your safety?

You can never guarantee your safety. However, craigslist could do a lot to help people screen out obviously dubious people; e.g. provide links to sex offenders' list, known criminals etc. I am pretty sure that much more sophisticated ways of fighting crime on the site exist or can be developed. However, it would take significant resources that craigslist apparently has but it not willing to dedicate to addressing these problems.

6) How could the recent series of craigslist murders have been avoided?

I don't believe they could have *absolutely* been avoided. I do believe crime in general would be significantly reduced on craigslist if they allocated reasonable resources to fighting it and that decisions made today determine to a large extent the magnitude of tomorrow's crimes.

Delia

P.S. let me know if you need me to clarify anything or you want me to answer anything else! D.

---- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/04/24 20:41:45
Subject: Re: RE: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Okay thanks very much. Here are a few questions, but please feel free to throw in anything else you'd like to.

1) What's wrong with Craigslist?
2) Does Craigslist turn a blind eye to illegal activities like prostitution?
3) What could they and what should they be doing differently to police this type of activity?
4) How dangerous is it to meet someone on craigslist, be it a prostitute or just a regular date?
5) If you do meet someone on craigslist, what steps should you take to guarantee your safety?
6) How could the recent series of craigslist murders have been avoided?
....

MORE: Twitter: "does [craigslist] promote prostitution and endanger the safety of its users?" WABC Radio with Curtis Sliwa invitation: http://tiny.cc/cvlqF4 minutes ago from web
....
Sorry, I can't... but feel free to ask me anything you'd like! I'd do my best to explain my opinions and address whatever questions there might be. Whether you choose to use it on your show (now or later) or not doesn't really matter to me... I'd be glad to help in any way I can, I just can't be on the show.

Delia

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/04/24 19:50:44
Subject: Re: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Sure. You can post whatever you'd like. Would you be willing to come on with assumed name? I appreciate the offer of reading your posts, but on radio it just works so much better if there's someone on to explain it and maybe take calls.

From: dperiod
To: Frank Morano
Sent: Fri Apr 24 16:43:49 2009
Subject: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Hi, Frank!

I do appreciate your interest but I value my privacy a lot! So an appearance on any radio show is not my choice...

I'd be glad to post my opinions on my craigslist criticism blog (like I have done for a long time) and you have my permission to use the info any way you'd like.

I could just go ahead and answer your question "does [craigslist] promote prostitution and endanger the safety of its users?" in a new entry on my blog. If you'd like to refine the question or ask further questions after I get the initial response posted, just let me know.

Delia

P.S. could I post your email/emails on my blog? thanks! D.

----- Original message -----
Sent: 2009/04/24 19:05:53
Subject: Re: Radio Appearance tonight

Hello,

I produce Curtis Sliwa’s nationally syndicated show and we were wondering if you’d like to come on with Curtis at 11:30 PM EST tonight to discuss craigslist. Does it promote prostitution and endanger the safety of its users? It would be by phone and last about ten minutes.

Thanks,

Frank

Frank Morano
Executive Producer

WABC Radio
(212) 268-5730

(212) 613-3849
frank.morano@citcomm.com (Please note new e-mail address)
2 Penn Plaza, 17th Fl
New York, NY 10121

would valid craigslist criticism stop if craigslist would disclose their financials to the public?

2009-04-09T14:19:00.000-07:00

MORE:

Dear dperiod:

BTW, if you think this is bad enough, consider that there are much bigger
companies reducing the quality of their customer service to cut costs to
increase their profit.

And these big companies have shareholders putting pressure on them to "meet
the numbers". That is why the "short-termism" of Wall Street is a bad thing.

Yuhong Bao

@yuhong2"non-commercial" poseurs secretly cleaning up huge profits (like craigslist appears to do) are much worse than up front for profits1 minute ago from web in reply to yuhong2

STILL MORE:

@craigscriticism FYI - link is broken on your twitter page - re: forums - i'll check it out, but I would like 2 hear what u want out of CL11:50 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to craigscriticism
@allofcraigs honesty and transparency would go a long way: stop redacting basic info re:craigslist in legal complaints, disclose profits etc6:54 AM Apr 10th from web in reply to allofcraigs
@craigscriticism cant fault u 4 wanting more from CL - but it's a free service & u get what u pay 4 - i would love 2 know how much CL makes11:22 AM Apr 10th from web in reply to craigscriticism
@allofcraigs you may well get your wish:): I'd keep my eyes open on the law suits -- it's probably just a matter of time until we'll know...6:33 AM Apr 11th from web in reply to allofcraigs
@craigscriticism well, my eyes & ears are wide open. I'm nosey, that's why I created my website ;-) Keep me up 2 speed on any dirt.9:43 AM Apr 11th from web in reply to craigscriticism
@allofcraigs can't promise... (been quitting more times that I care to remember -I want to see the truth but wish someone else did the work)5:03 PM Apr 12th from web in reply to allofcraigs

EVEN MORE:

@craigscriticism craigslist can't police billions of posts - who's to blame? look into mirror, it's called accountability. bad apples
@allofcraigs do you really think 26 employees (that's *everyone* including Craig) is ALL the resources they should allocate to serving CL? D9:24 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to allofcraigs

@craigscriticism Keep in mind that I don't think that there are many for-profit public companies that disclose their profits.8:44 PM Apr 9th from web
@yuhong2 I'm not aware of any other for profit that has made anywhere in the range of claims craigslist has made and so greatly benefited $$9:29 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to yuhong2

@craigscriticism craigslist can't police billions of posts - who's to blame? look into mirror, it's called accountability. bad apples5:16 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to craigscriticism
@allofcraigs and I got a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn:); the needs of the community are not met--hang out in the feedback&help forums & see9:54 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to allofcraigs

@craigscriticism On #3, that is not the question I was asking, I am asking if *List Foundation* *legally* incorporated as a non-profit.9:59 PM Apr 9th from web
@yuhong2 SFGate, for instance, reported on their bash celebrating the non-profit status (http://tinyurl.com/cwc7qx) -- is it real proof? no.10:16 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to yuhong2

@craigscriticism On #2, my point was I doubt people would really care that much about whether it was a for-profit or a non-profit.9:59 PM Apr 9th from web
@yuhong2 as long as they backed up their claims... (evidence is strong that they are NOT doing that thus the need for volunteer disclosure)10:23 PM Apr 9th from web in reply to yuhong2

...
MORE:

#1 would valid craigslist criticism stop if the for profit craigslist would voluntarily disclose their financial information to the public? I seriously doubt it... I believe people would be appaulled to see what's really going on...and that's why craigslist/ Craig Newmark & Jim Buckmaster go to ridiculous length to keep even basic things secret (see the heavy redaction of ebay's complaint against craigslist, for instance)

#2 the difference between for-profits and non-profits: if craigslist would be a non-profit, nobody could profit from it (making out with humongous profits for years, as it appears...): whatever amount would exceed their legitimate expenses (which include normal salaries and benefits for all employees including Craig & Jim) would *have to* be used towards advancing the mission! and they would have the legal obligation to disclose what's really going on -- their financial situation -- ; by all indication, there is no reason for the severe under staffing (26 employees for a huge number of users! -- that's ALL the craigslist community gets, after having built craigslist to where it is today...) and antiquated under development of the site... the rest of the resources available appear to be pocketed...

#3 was List Foundation a non-profit? : if it wasn't, Craig certainly made it sound like it and people believed it! from the users, to volunteers, to sponsors, to the media... (I do believe this should constitute evidence for fraud)

Delia

....
I think you do have a point. Disclosing the profit craigslist makes would have reduced the criticism
considerably. After all, there are many other possible reasons why some companies have
poor customer service.

Yuhong Bao

@yuhong2 thanks for the email, Yu! is it ok to post it on my blog like I did with Eve Batey's of sfappeal? (re: http://tiny.cc/7arxd) Deliaabout 19 hours ago from web in reply to yuhong2
@craigscriticism Yes. Ignore the last question I asked in my email about peopleslist because that was written before I read all the posts.about 19 hours ago from web in reply to craigscriticism
@craigscriticism: Why are you obessed with the difference between for-profits and not-for-profits? I think it is just a legal technicality.about 19 hours ago from web
@craigscriticism: Actually I think the difference is that non-profits survive on donations. Correct me if I am wrong.about 18 hours ago from web
@craigscriticism: Do you have any proof List Foundation actually incorporated as a non-profit or was it just another name for craigslist?about 17 hours ago from web
@yuhong2 Yu,140 characters is very limiting. lets have this discussion on my blog, ok? I'll try to post that entry this afternoon EST ~Deliaabout 10 hours ago from web in reply to yuhong2

another craigslist death...

2009-03-26T18:11:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE: March 28 update -- it's temporary (looks like fresh twits rank high on Google search and also get pushed down by newer twits) D.

Twitter: impressed with Twitter -- my prior twit made it right under the link for craigslist official blog (search
for "craigslist violent crime") Dhalf a minute ago from web

MORE:

Twitter: violent crime -- what is craigslist doing to prevent it? what *should* they be doing given their humongous profits? http://tiny.cc/0qKqw D.less than 10 seconds ago from web
....

previously

more craigslist violent crime -- what is craigslist doing to prevent it? what *should* they be doing given their humongous profits? a lot more then just giving some suggestions... Jim is really stretching it (last paragraph) again: those few suggestions do not amount to "measures," Jim -- serious measures are what you should be having but you have nothing of the kind ... nor do you intent to do anything about it, by all indication... D.

email account fixed...(finally)

2009-03-19T20:15:00.001-07:00

craigslist "customer service" -- the fundamentals are just not there...

2009-03-18T19:44:00.000-07:00

MORE: craigslist "customer service": the fundamentals are just not there... D. http://tiny.cc/GYw21less than 20 seconds ago from web
...
Twitter... @Payo looks like show to me, Paul -- Craig and his tiny "team" can't possibly provide anything resembling adequate customer service...Deliaabout 7 hours ago from web in reply to Payo

hoping Paul got it... as for Craig? he's either lobotomized or he *knows* what's going on! -- there is just no way to provide adequate customer service for the number of people using craigslist with the extremely limited resources he is willing to dedicate to it...

and is he calling me a "stalker," again? good :) -- that's when I know I hit a really good one! *lol* (probably this one this morning -- he posted his "feedback needed" -- the blog portion of it -- soon after (where he asked people to ignore "trolls" and "sites desperate for traffic" -- is he talking about Eve's site? what a jerk...) and the I-got-a-stalker twit was posted soon after I gave Paul the hint...

well, guess what... you can't shut people up! (as much as you'd like to...)

Delia

P.S. love Twitter !-- reminds me of an idea I had a long while back: this is the only way you can have a real conversation (if it happens on neutral grounds) D.

comcast trouble with the email...

2009-03-18T19:40:00.000-07:00

if you've emailed today, haven't got it yet D.

is Craig Newmark / craigslist pimping? The lawsuit's strength and weaknesses

2009-03-18T05:43:00.000-07:00

Twitter: is Craig Newmark / craigslist pimping? The lawsuit's strength and weaknesses... (feel free to join the discussion) http://tiny.cc/wMf0R D.less than 10 seconds ago from web

As far as I can tell the biggest strength is showing that regardless of what craigslist claims to be its reason for having "erotic services" the actual effect is very different and the biggest weakness is got to be mistakenly presenting the erotic service section as "forums" instead of advertisement.

Delia

P.S. curious what people think

P.P.S. please email instead of posting comments

dot org my....

2009-03-14T16:58:00.000-07:00

Twitter: @peymojo Paul, craigslist is using the dot org denomination abusively, in my opinion, since it ceased to be List Foundation (a non-profit)half a minute ago from web in reply to peymojo

on buying the SF Chronicle

2009-03-14T07:31:00.000-07:00

EVEN MORE: twitter

Craig Newmark / craigslist and the news -- discussion with Eve Batey of sfappeal.com http://tiny.cc/7arxd (sparked by http://tiny.cc/WY5Dr)less than 10 seconds ago from web

MORE:

I believe it would be for financial gain in the long run, that news could be integrated into craigslist and eventually be monetized. If you take a look at the community heading for craigslist cities there is a subheading for "local news and views" -- this subcategory is a mishmash of things at this point but it certainly has potential for news distribution. Craig's inside information from being involved with things like Daylife could really pay off. D.

Still MORE:

Totally understand! It's a precaution we have to take against trolls, but I completely understand why you might not be comfortable with it.

When you say "I think it's unlikely that Craig/craigslist would buy
any media outlet but if it happened, it would be for very different
reasons." I'm intrigued. What reasons would there be?

Eve Batey
sfappeal.

EVEN MORE: Twitter

the motivation if Craig Newmark/craigslist bought the San Francisco Chronicle? http://tiny.cc/7arxd (sparked by http://tiny.cc/WY5Dr) Delia 3 minutes ago from web

MORE:

note for Eve: I didn't realize I have to register to post on your site. I don't like doing that -- sorry! D.

STILL MORE:

re: ""I'll tell you that in this case I'm not in the business of considering motivation. Craig has intentionally positioned himself as the Guy Who Would Save Media, so, motivation aside, that's what poses the possibility that he'd be the buyer. I do not understand why he would not state for the record, now that an actually Save Media opportunity is presenting itself, if he is actually going to go for it.

And, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't! It's an expensive proposition with a lot of risk and little reward. But, like I said in my article,this playing coy thing makes his remarks on wanting journos to demand answers of industry leaders hypocritical."

Sorry about the long delay, Eve!

After having followed this for way too long (I thought I successfully quit a while ago but now I'm back at it), I've seen nothing to suggest Craig has any real interest in "saving" anything... just a lot of hot air... and double talk.

I he/craigslist bought the Chron, it wouldn't be to "help out"... that's why I think motivation is very important when discussing this topic. I think it's unlikely that Craig/craigslist would buy any media outlet but if it happened, it would be for very different reasons.

Delia

EVEN MORE:

love this crossposting idea, let's do it! Thanks for asking, please use my email any way you'd like. See you at the Appeal!

On Mar 14, 2009, at 6:30 PM, dperiod@comcast.net wrote: I have no idea what you said in that comment, Eve (haven't read it)...but I like what you are saying now:). Just to clarify, I don't think *you* are fool of it -- I was implying that Craig/craigslist is... We can certainly talk at sfappel if you'd like to talk! I'll meet you there. I'll post a comment to kick it off...re:

"I'll tell you that in this case I'm not in the business of considering motivation. Craig has intentionally positioned himself as the Guy Who Would Save Media, so, motivation aside, that's what poses the possibility that he'd be the buyer. I do not understand why he would not state for the record, now that an actually Save Media opportunity is presenting itself, if he is actually going to go for it.

And, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't! It's an expensive proposition with a lot of risk and little reward. But, like I said in my article,this playing coy thing makes his remarks on wanting journos to demand answers of industry leaders hypocritical."

Delia

P.S. Is it ok to post this email exchange in the body of the entry on my blog? from then on I'll be cross posting my comments (on your site and on my blog) with links to your responses on your site, ok?

On Sat, 2009-03-14 at 18:09 -0700, Eve Batey wrote:Now I'm trying to remember what I said, because I think it was clever! Maybe something like "come over to the Appeal and let's talk about it in the comments there"? Because I'd love to get the discussion going there on it, we are new and eager for discourse.

Barring that, I'll tell you that in this case I'm not in the business of considering motivation. Craig has intentionally positioned himself as the Guy Who Would Save Media, so, motivation aside, that's what poses the possibility that he'd be the buyer. I do not understand why he would not state for the record, now that an actually Save Media opportunity is presenting itself, if he is actually going to go for it.

And, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't! It's an expensive proposition with a lot of risk and little reward. But, like I said in my article, this playing coy thing makes his remarks on wanting journos to demand answers of industry leaders hypocritical.

But, still, come over to the Appeal and let's talk about it! I wantto know what you have to say! Come tell me I'm full of it.

--Eve

MORE: @sfappeal Eve, I stopped taking comments on that blog; fell free to email (http://tiny.cc/2dukR) if you'd rather not answer here; thanks! D.less than a minute ago from web in reply to sfappeal
...
@sfappeal Eve, what motive would Craig/craigslist have in buying the Chron? "helping out?" that's the real bullshit! http://tiny.cc/375kS D.less than 10 seconds ago from web in reply to sfappeal

(more) mindless PR

2009-03-13T08:39:00.000-07:00

MORE: @jake_buehler venom? I didn't write the craig$list article, Jake; what can I say... keep believing the fairy tale if it makes you happy!:). 2 minutes ago from web in reply to jake_buehler

entire Twitter conversation with Jake -- just click on the "show conversation" button (starting to see the value of Twitter... D.)

EVEN MORE: @jake_buehler just an observer, Jack... here's a good hint if you are serious about this: http://tiny.cc/FQSpd (craig$list) take care! Delia 17 minutes ago from web in reply to jake_buehler

MORE: @JeffElder that's like thinking Santa Claus is a good guy 'cause kids like him -- it's all fiction and you guys eat it all up... pretty sadless than 20 seconds ago from web in reply to JeffElder

STILL MORE: @jake_buehler well, tell Doug I said he needs to do a lot more thinking re: craigslist...(otherwise, he comes across as... not too bright:)5 minutes ago from web in reply to jake_buehler

EVEN MORE: @tsmyther Hi, Smythe! no offense but I'm wondering if you still believe in Santa Claus (the craigslist fairy tale is very similar) Delia5 minutes ago from web in reply to tsmyther
...
MORE: there was a twit at one point where a guy was unabashedly asking Craig is he was interested in doing an interview / PR -- in those words --and, wouldn't you know it, Craig jumped at it... shouldn't these people get paid? (looks like there are plenty of profits to go around) D.
...
Twitter: @jake_buehler did you guys get paid for the PR provided? (craig is all but reading off a script with little interruption) D.less than 10 seconds ago from web in reply to jake_buehler

(prostitution) is craigslist "knowingly promoting and facilitating prostitution"?

2009-03-06T12:33:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE: best Twitter exchanges from yesterday were from
farhanmemon...

@ricksanchezcnn What your guest is essentially saying is that Craigslist and Craig Newmark are running a fence for prostitution. 2:57 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to ricksanchezcnn
craignewmark @ricksanchezcnn Some honesty regarding the Cook County thing: http://tinyurl.com/arvfb4
farhanmemon @craignewmark I think you're on shaky ground on this. You've set up a marketplace for human traffiking. The law may have to be changed.11:01 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark Read your "honest approach" Arg not compelling The facts on the ground: your system is being used for illegal underage sex 11:32 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark True or false -- Prostitution is illegal? True or false -- CL has ads for prostitutes (True True).11:38 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark The law will shield digital media for only so long. Congress will get righteous and change the law esp. for human traffiking11:40 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark I have a law degree. Twit too short for analysis. Even if law shields you today may not continue as such if you don't clean up11:42 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark I'm defending VAWA immigrants against deportation. Know anyone in DHS?11:43 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark All I am saying is that CL is a marketplace for human traffiking like it or not. By creating "erotic" category you opened door11:45 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark Don't know anyone in power? You know the daddy mac...Obama.11:49 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to craignewmark
@LawProf You're right which is why CL needs to clean up act by policing erotic category.11:54 PM Mar 6th from web in reply to LawProf
@craignewmark Your problem is following the advice of cops in good faith in one jurisdiction will not shield you from liability in another.12:43 AM Mar 7th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark Craig imagine your liability (you personally and CL) if a teenage prostitute gets murdered by a John who found her on CL?12:44 AM Mar 7th from web in reply to craignewmark
@craignewmark PS None of what I am saying should be thought of as legal advice. I'm sure you have plenty of lawyers working overtime.12:47 AM Mar 7th from web in reply to craignewmark

Delia

P.S. Craig's replies are lame as usual (as well as Jim's official statement on craigslist's official blog mentioned in some of those tweets) .

P.P.S. gold medal goes to the Tweet where Craig is directing his critic to... go flag some ads! *lol* ... D.

MORE: Twitter:

why do best things happen that odd day when you go to a wedding? (great developments on Twitter re:craigslist yesterday); we'll see if there is some spark left for today D24 minutes ago from web

@ricksanchezcnn congratulation on your talk with Dart! (just saw the transcript) your Twitter reference gave a very different impression...D15 minutes ago from web in reply to ricksanchezcnn

STILL MORE: Twitter:

@ricksanchezcnn the question is whether or not craigslist is "knowingly promoting and facilitating prostitution"? http://tinyurl.com/8zdfft

EVEN MORE: Twitter:

is craigslist "knowingly promoting and facilitating prostitution"? http://tinyurl.com/8zdfft less than 20 seconds ago from web

MORE: it's disappointing to see how little critical thinking went into this article but on the positive side it does bring to light some good info (packaged neatly in all of two paragraphs...):

(8th and 9th paragraphs):

"Dart said the agreement between Craigslist and the attorneys general has resulted in *no appreciable reduction of ads for prostitution on the site*. Furthermore, he said, Craigslist does not monitor the "erotic services" section of the site, and when his officers have attempted to contact Craigslist *they have been ignored or not gotten the kind of help they need*.

Dart is asking a federal judge to order Craigslist to eliminate its "Erotic Services" section, where most prostitution ads are posted. He also is *seeking reimbursement for tax dollars spent* paying the salaries of officers who investigate and arrest those responsible for trafficking women on the Web site."

[my emphasis]

significant and telling misinformation: not mentioning the fact that we really don't know where the fees from the "erotic services" ads are going... (this should have been included in the 7th paragraph... as for presenting craigslist as "profit-adverse" (end of paragraph)... has this guy seen conservative estimates of craigslist's profits? doesn't look like it... D.

...

(as stated in the new federal case)

-- does the existence of the "erotic services" section result in an increased number of incidents of prostitution? I would think so... it certainly appears to provide an efficient and effective way of engaging in prostitution (at least some individuals would not have done it outside of craigslist) so how is this not knowingly promoting and facilitation prostitution?

-- craigslist's (too) long standing lame defense has been that if they got rid of that section, those ads would pop up elsewhere on craigslist... except that it would be much less efficient and effective than providing a centralized place for those ads and would thus result in less increase in prostitution...

-- and that's a red herring anyways because what craigslist provides in those sections is ADS, so they should screen those ads like advertisers are legally required to do... this is easily doable (a program that makes sure certain words are not mentioned in those ads -- nothing too sophisticated -- would accomplish the same function as the screeners employed by paper publications)

but that would take some time and money and craigslist appears to want to hold on to that money instead...

keeping those ads also appears to significantly increase the number of overall hits craigslist gets (and presumably attracts more advertisers to the pay sections)

-- EEF continues to miss the point... (willingly?): they keep talking non-sense about "freedom of speech"! those posts are just...ADS... they are in the advertisement segments of craigslist and as such should abide by legal requirements for ads... the posts in the craigslist FORUMS should definitely have the benefit of free speech (not that they always do, often a snap decision is made to move forum posts to the Isle of Misfits or delete them altogether...)

Delia

Twitter: let's see if this thing works, again....

2009-03-05T19:19:00.000-08:00

@popgunpulp more the norm than the exception, Mitch -- Craig is “hard at work” (doing damage control) D.9 minutes ago from web in reply to popgunpulp

@popgunpulp favorite Twitter exchange re: craigslist: http://tinyurl.com/8snjd7 and revealing web interaction http://tinyurl.com/db37dj D.

(Google search ranking) Robert Scoble's Ego feed beats The New York Times?

2009-02-18T16:09:00.000-08:00

MORE: trying Twitter again D.
....
that's funny... it's been a couple of days now and it doesn't seem to go away; one of my comic relief entries, that I moved to my craigslist criticism comic relief blog got on Scoble's Ego feed and apparently as a consequence ranks in the 3rd position before The New York Times link... when searching for "craigslist criticism" using Google search. D.

comic relief clean-up: ...going, going...

2009-02-16T17:09:00.001-08:00

March 6th UPDATE: I went ahead an asked Blogger to review it -- hopefully they don't get any funny ideas (if the do, I have those pages saved so if anybody wants to see them just email and ask for it); it would be nice to keep that blog so I could continue to move posts there (such as this one...) D.

EVEN MORE: what's wrong with Bogger? you can't move posts without being suspected of spamming? this is ridiculous... anyways, I got 20 days to figure out what I want to do... D.

MORE: some posts that are not strictly comic relief but are a bit too far removed will also get the axe so if you are looking for things that may be tangentially relevant just look there D.
...
... it's going to take a while until it will be all gone but I'm working on it; there may or may not be more of that added to my craigslist criticism comic relief blog (seems like a good idea to segregate those posts, wish I thought about it earlier) D.

craigslist's transfer of traffic from non-profit to for-profit

2009-02-15T22:03:00.000-08:00

MORE: (9th comment) Seth, I think I got it: Craig transfered the traffic from ListFoundation to Craigslist.Inc. (by way of 1010 Cole Street Inc.) D.
...
basically from List Foundation to Craigslist Inc. (by way of 1010 Cole Street inc.)

the facts!

2009-02-14T08:35:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE:

re: [Seth] maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?

I thought of website certificates, which are supposed to list ownership but they probably stop at the name without verifying if it is for profit or non-profit or somebody's hobby or what... that stuff would be really useful, though!

maybe web certificates could be enhanced to include that info

could prevent non-profit poseurs, among other bad things -- when you got to a dot org website that is really a for profit (see craigslist) you'd get a warning!

Delia

(aside) to Craig's credit, he removed to The Isle of Misfits LeFoModerator' post: "Thread marked to deletion" -- had been posted as reply to my thread D.

(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116204333)

MORE: alright, looks like this got sidetracked... I'll see if I can salvage it..

sorry about all that confusion, Dlapee! < dperiod > 02/15 13:01:24

(please ignore my prior subthread)

going back to your initial reply:

[Craig would have committed fraud] if "Craig" was carrying on operations which only a not-for-profit could while the company was not categorized as such.

would continuing to have sponsors after becoming a for-profit qualify?

Delia

STILL MORE: (8th comment) hmmm... Seth, I thought I posted another comment but I may not have or something else happened -- anyways it's on my blog if you haven't seen it yet and you'd like to see it D.

EVEN MORE: asked Seth to help, also

You are right to be confused, Seth -- it's far from clear what would have really happened. I'm trying to look into the facts (got delayed by VDay). Here is what I got so far:

http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/facts.html

maybe you can help? what's the best way to check for ownership of a website for IRS purposes, for instance?

Delia

MORE:
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116256664)

I said those were the facts I had at that point < dperiod > 02/15 05:32:18

and you are right about the ownership for tax purposes (what's the best way to check that for a website?); I do think who registered the websites (and the address given *was* Craig' home address at the time) is a good indication of who the owner was but you are right, it's not proof.

Delia

P.S. talking of IRS issues, if Craig misrepresented what the donors' money were really helping, would the "donors" be in trouble with the IRS (if they thought they were helping a legitimate non-profit but were in fact financing the development of a for profit?) D.
...

yeah, and we need th facts for that... < dperiod > 02/14 09:13:05
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116202566)
(9th comment)
(http://sfbay.craigslist.org/forums/?ID=116183310)

here are the facts as far as I can tell at this point:

-- in 1994, Craig started an email list about events in SF

-- on oct.24th, 1995, he registered the website cnewmark.com, while he was living at 1010 Cole Street in SF

-- in December 1996, the former email list was on the web at cnewmark.com

-- on September 11,1997 he registered both craigslist.com and craigslist.org as websites (the dot.org domain registration is not regulated so although it gives the impression of being a non-profit it needs not be so from the web registration point of view)

-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.com domain at least between Nov. 11th, 1998 and sept. 23rd, 2007

-- craigslist operated at the craigslist.org domain at least between December 2nd,1998 and current time

-- craigslist operated on the listfoundation.org domain at least between December 2nd 1999 and April 28th 2000

-- -- On March 15th,2001 somebody registered listfoundation.org

-- listfoundation.org has changed ownership at least once

-- 0n June 14th, 2001 Craig registerd craigslistfoundation.org, giving the 1010 Cole Street address, his personal residence, for registration purposes

- On September 11th, 2001 (through a for profit called "1010 Cole Street, Inc.") the craigslist.biz domain was registered

--on September 6th,2003, Craig starts using the cnewmark.com domain as his personal blog

-- on May 15th 2008, in their response to an unrelated complaint filed by ebay, Craig and Jim admit that "Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist" (page 2nd,point 7)

Delia

P.S. can't post links; my sources were Alexa.com (for website registration), the wayback machine function of archive.com (for time of websites operation), who.is for info on 1010 Cole Street inc. and ebay's complaint and Craig and Jim's response to that complaint.

P.P.S. it might take a while for me to check for replies; thanks for any ideas! D.

(Seth's back!) did it happen?

2009-02-13T22:33:00.000-08:00

you are welcome, Seth! (6th comment)

re: "what does "stepped in" mean? Generally, it's difficult to convert the assets of a nonprofit to those of a for-profit."

it seems to me that the real asset was not monetary (not at the point of transfer); what he really transfered between the companies, from the non-profit to the for profit was *traffic*! -- traffic that the *for profit* craigslist was able to monetize.

here are some things that craigslist did NOT deny: (page 2nd,point 7 of craigslist's response to ebay's complaint) "it is admitted that Mr. Newmark formed 1010 Cole Street inc. ("1010"), which is a predecessor of craigslist, that Mr. Buckmaster was hired and received shares in 1010 and later craigslist"

Delia

(would it be legal?) lets see what the craigslist legal forum thinks...

2009-02-13T21:07:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE:

looks like fraud to me (at a minimum) §
according to Peter, it's "bait and switch" §
that's why I put it in quotations...
... I can certainly see Peter's point (as a concept); if intent can be shown, wouldn't the "donors" be defrauded? (they were made to believe they were helping a non-profit and in fact ended up financing a *for profit*?)

MORE: this could turn out to be pretty interesting -- let's hope it stays on topic and does not degenerate in who knows what... D.
....
would this be legal? < dperiod > 02/13 21:07:55

hi, I'm trying to figure out if this would be legal.

Peter: "The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.

When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in [and] cashed in."

Delia

P.S. let's set aside whether or not it actually happened (I'm just looking at whether or not it would be legal); thanks! D.

classic craigslist enthusiast...

2009-02-13T18:31:00.000-08:00

Tom Harada: "you are the man!(....)it is feels awesome (...) you are just so awesome (...) i should know what awesome is! so awesome..."

sounds like a ditsy cheerleader doesn't it? this guy could definitely use some perspective...

Tom,you may want to tell Michael Halligan or Peter just how awesome craigslist really is... D.

comcast is fine now but Twitter's gone bonkers... lets see what Seth thinks....

2009-02-11T20:20:00.000-08:00

Seth, (3rd comment)

I thought you might find this interesting:

Peter (re: craigslist but seems to be relevant to Wikepedia-Wikimedia also, as far as strategy):

"The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.

When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in [and] cashed in."

http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/articles-are-still-disappointing-but.html

If true (and it certainly appears plausible, consistent with ebay's complaint -- it actually makes sense of some information that was rendered incomprehensible apparently by craigslist' editing out of things it didn't want the public to know), doesn't it look like Jimmy is trying to do th same thing, albeit much less successfully?

He's trying to do it *after the fact* -- he did not have a non-profit and a for profit registered at the same time.

Delia

P.S. I was going to try to see if I could get some info regarding what Peter said by using Twitter, both the actual things that happened back then and whether or not this strategy is in fact legal (doesn't look like it to me) but... Twitter is acting silly! (I came up with a very strong password that I...predictably, forgot... and now they tell me they sent me the email with the info on how to change the password but when I enter the address in the browser they tell me they can't verify that th user requested a password reset... and there is nothing to do then ... try again... just to get the same result -- pretty frustrating! D.

if you've been trying to email, don't despair...

2009-02-11T05:48:00.000-08:00

comcast is acting strangely... I''m not receiving even my own test messages at this point although G. is... (hopefully will be ok by this evening) D.

articles are still disappointing but comments are getting much better...

2009-02-10T21:47:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE:

Peter (10th comment),

I'd be interested in more details (basically, documenting what you said in you comment). Feel free to email. Thanks!

Delia (d p e r i o d @ c o m c a s t . n e t),
without the spaces, of course

MORE: and a note for Lidjia, the author of the article:

Lidija,(9th comment)

Here is someone's actual experience with craigslist -- great reading on the topic that would have probably made this article much more balanced. Take care!

Delia

http://craigslistcriticism.blogspot.com/2009/02/hmmm-how-do-i-get-michael-halligan-to.html

...
Peter (3rd comment) :

The secret to Craig's community-building exercise was the following: in the late 90's he realized nobody would be too excited to help promote a service by a corporation. So he registered 2 companies - one non-profit and the other one for-profit.

When he expanded out of his SF base - specifically to NYC, he approached a variety of local groups and organization through his non-profit arm, selling the idea of a community web site and ask for their support in promoting it. He did not say anything about the other entity. When the traffic started flowing, a couple of years later, the "other" craigslist stepped in a cashed in.

This was brilliant but just a little sinister. Craig is a shrewd businessman, but please spare the b.s. about community-building principles. His top principle was "bait and switch".

hmmm... how do I get Michael Halligan to continue this blog?

2009-02-06T20:33:00.000-08:00

MORE: very good, Michael... *very* good!:) D.

re:
@craignewmark in your rush to increase job posting revenue, have you asked the community if your features make their lives easier?about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark for apartment listings you're the only and worst game in town. It must feel good to be a monopoly about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark My facts are that craigslist has been a nightmare experience for apartment hunting since I first used you in 2000. about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark Like Microsoft, you maintain market dominance by riding on first-mover luck and massive numbers. about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark release an open API if you actually care so much about the community. Otherwise you just pay lipservice. about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark You've become such a sad corporate shill hiding under the pretense of community. Craigslist Ueber Alles. about 22 hours ago from web
As I suffer through house-hunting in San Franciso on Craigslist, I can't help but feel like I'm doing business with TicketMaster... Deja Vu?about 22 hours ago from web
@craignewmark I'm curious, when you've trained your users to expect inferiority, what's left besides expanding your markets? about 22 hours ago from web
Craigslist is "Free" The 30+ hours I've spent there in the three weeks while looking for apartment feels rather expensive for "Free" about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge Craigslist is like US foreign policy. We're suffering for the mistakes of older generations :( about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge that's a problem with the masses in general. My concern is older generations profit off of bad decisions and we hold the bag about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge craigslist now has a monopoly on classifieds in many markets, yet their core functionality has not hanged in a decade about 22 hours ago from web
@artstatlarge the only changes are their half-assed account system, annoyingly unreadable captchas, and 200+ new market template about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge but we take it because @craignewmark spews out the word "community" like a tourettes patient says, "fuck". about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge Craigslist's value is it's mass, not it's functionality. We'd be better off if CL died and it's monopoly were broken.about 22 hours ago from web
@artistatlarge like I said .. 1998 called up Craigslist and asked for it's obsolete interface and broken search techniques back. about 22 hours ago from web

Delia

P.S. this is by far the best explanation of what's wrong with craigslist out there -- it's running circles around New York Times journalists etc. and doesn't fall in any of the traps (if you don't know the traps by now just read Craig's "answers" to Michael's posts); brilliant job, Michael! thanks!:) D.

....
this Twitter exchange is priceless:

@craignewmark Every time I have to look for housing, I dislike you a little bit more. 1998 called and they want their bad UI design back. about 2 hours ago from web
@mhalligan Perhaps you can suggest an improvement? I'd appreciate that. First, can you point me to something you've done? 37 minutes ago from iTweet in reply to mhalligan
@craignewmark .. I've been suggesting the same improvements for 8 years. Being first to market makes you lucky, not right. 30 minutes ago from web
@craignewmark Since you monopolize the country's classified's data, how about an API. Give us a chance to make up for your stagnation. 28 minutes ago from web

Delia

P.S. I've thought of joining Twitter just to pat Michael on the shoulder (he deserves it!) but... I'm afraid I'd get sucked into the Twitter world and end-up spending more not less time on this... D.

is somebody trying to help out or is this something entirely different?

2009-02-06T14:07:00.000-08:00

MORE: that page (together with a passage from my blog) comes up when searching for "craigslist criticism" in Google blogs search -- reminds me of something... D.
...
craigslist :: expert craigslist poster needed now

(http://rockinhigh.com/craigslist-expert-craigslist-poster-needed-now)

have no idea what it says (seems to be Russian or similar) -- I did not allow the pop-ups (don't quite trust the site) so that link brings up just three words: Таких записей нет

if this was just to help spread my request, thanks! if it purports to be anything else... please ignore it...

Delia

alright... the no-comments-thing is still on

2009-02-05T22:02:00.000-08:00

but if you have info about the things I'm posting on this blog from now on, please email me! If I deem your contribution significant, I'll include your comment in the body of the entry if you'd like that. thanks!

Delia

P.S. I don't expect to post much (will not keep up with craigslist news, for instance) -- just some odds and ends; if and when I bump into things that I believe shed more light on what I've already discussed on this blog) D.

just a reminder: please do not submit any more comments for this blog, ok?

2009-01-11T16:52:00.000-08:00

*really*... I'm done here... (have not and will not read any further comments)

Delia

P.S. whether you love it or hate it... it's all good! :)

P.P.S. please only email me about this blog if and when you'd like to continue it -- I made this clear in the prior entry D.

whatever happened with the ebay v. craigslist lawsuit?

2009-01-05T19:31:00.000-08:00

I was really waiting for the resolution to that (I thought it would be a pretty good place to end this blog) -- I've been pretty much marching in place waiting for that, posting much less ... I do believe it will clarify a lot things about craigslist, if the public *does* get to watch it.

But we should have heard about it by now -- it was supposed to go to court in September (way back). So what happen? Was it settled out of court so craigslist's secrets remain sealed? That would be very telling...

Why is craigslist hiding crucial things from the public? And more importantly, why isn't the media pointing out the fundamental contradiction between craigslist's public image and its lack of transparency?

Delia

P.S. Anyways, I feel like my work here is done -- I mean, there is enough here so if somebody finds this blog even years from now it shouldn't be very difficult to just do the research and bring it up to date. I hope somebody does it... and please let me know if you do! (I'd definitely read it and tell you what I think if you'd like that!)

If you find the "comic relief" entries irrelevant (most of them are :), I just needed a laugh maybe a bit more often than I should have had, you can easily easily filter it out...

OK... this is D. signing off -- another closed blog of mine... (please don't submit any more comments, just email me if and when you'd like to pick up where I left off -- thanks!)

Craig's false modesty: the removal that was anything but...

2009-01-05T08:15:00.000-08:00

actually, not only that you didn't remove your words (they are dangling at the end of the quote with no apparent relationship with what's before them) but you brought more attention to them (and yourself) D.
(http://www.cnewmark.com/2009/01/what-would-google-do.html#comment-144147136)

(housing discrimination) alright!

2009-01-04T17:51:00.000-08:00

EVEN MORE: please read 3rd and 4th comment!

re: " My, and any other owner occupied multi-family dwellings, responsibility under the law is exactly as I mentioned.

I can advertise, mention, or discriminate against anyone I want to for any reason I want to without being in violation of the law.

Your mentioning of discrimination only applies to non-owner occupied dwellings, and "apartment buildings" which are generally anything with 4 or more apartments in it."

again, I suggest you check the law regarding *advertising* and make sure you understand what you can and cannot *advertise* (whether or not you can discriminate is not all that relevant -- you need to make sure you are not advertising anything you are not legally allowed to advertise...) D.

...
MORE: please read the comments to this entry!

re: "As a landlord for an owner occupied 2 family home, I can tell you that many many many rules and regulations for "Fair Housing" don't apply to me, and I can deny a person to live in the other half of my house for any reason I want. Skin Color, hair color, kids, pets, smokers, what car they drive, how much money they make, religion, sexual preference or any number of other things if I want to."

what you can legally do and what you can legally advertise are different things -- I suggest you make sure you understand what is your responsibility under the law as far as *advertising* if you are going to advertise on craigslist (or elsewhere): the prior court ruling only absolves *craigslist* of liability, NOT the craigslist ad posters/landlords

Delia
....
second round....

Delia

P.S. let's hope the legal system wakes up D.

(prostitution) wink-wink, nudge-nudge?

2009-01-02T18:03:00.000-08:00

Craig is casually conversing with EscortRatings on Twitter -- (you can probably guess what "services" they provide) a number of back-and-forth shooting-the-breeze type comments (e.g.)

Delia

P.S. again, I can't believe he is *that* dumb -- he must realize who he is talking to and that his followers would notice that... D.

(prostitution) New Mexico Attorney General: is craigslist violating the consent agreement?

2009-01-02T17:39:00.000-08:00

(last paragraph) -- it would certainly help if he would look into craigslist a bit more... here is where I would start:

(5th paragraph) "It would help our vice unit if they were able to monitor it just a little bit more," she said. "And the person that was advertising on their Web site if they were able to look at what they were soliciting, and what they were selling, that would definitely help us."

--> my guess is that craigslist doesn't *want* to do anything more than they think they *have* to do... to effectively address the prostitution problem, they would have to hire an adequate number of customer service people and forgo profits... (that's never been something they have been willing to do...)

Delia

P.S. it's pretty bad form to claim the money charged for the erotic ads is going to charity but refuse to make it clear that it does not in fact end-up in their pockets... (like the rest of the profits...) D.

(more) non-sense from Craig: helping out those who are out to make a profit...

2008-12-15T11:14:00.000-08:00

MORE: sorry about the delay (was away fro the day)

re: "Maybe you meant to write "not-for-profit", since volunteermatch.org says they are a nonprofit?"

I'm assuming you are referring to my quote -- that was a direct quote from "A Craigslist for service" -- the link Craig provided (numeral one under what should be the forth paragraph).

If you are saying that Craig may have made a mistake and meant not-for-profit, I doubt that, for a number of reasons:

#1. craigslist is itself a *for profit* (although by using the dot.org designation -- abusively in my opinion -- makes it very difficult for plenty of people that are providing free labor in the form of flagging etc. to realize this)

#2. volunteermatch.org, while itself a non-profit, gives the option of volunteering for *corporations* (which are *for profit*) --> I believe this should not be allowed under the non-profit set-up (the non-profit is basically forgoing making a profit from the free labor *themselves* but passing that profit to *the corporations* it intermediates for) and if it is not clearly spelled out at the moment, I hope the IRS is going to spell it out...

Delia

re: "If you have the time and inclination to get out, you might volunteer for an existing service organization, probably a recognized *for-profit*." [my emphasis]

then again, if you have the brains and the inclination to think... you might donate your time to those who actually *need* the help... (as opposed to those who are out to make a profit, the *for-profits*, and would be thrilled to have your free labor...)

Delia

P.S. not at all surprised to hear this sort of non-sense from you... (it's just hard to believe that people still fall for it) D.

(http://www.cnewmark.com/2008/12/a-craigslist-for-service.html#comment-142776442)

craigslist criticism

yes, I'm aware there have been some developments re: craigslist & ebay...

to Greg Collier (re: Victor Sage's email on 4/25)

response to: Open letter to craigslist, others to make classifieds sites safe

craigslist pulls "erotic services" worldwide -- congratulations!:)

craigslist current issues

100 Experts in Letter to Craigslist: Complete the Job, Now

Conference call tomorrow (9/8) at 11 AM EST on Craigslist and Adult Services Section

craigslist sycophants are speeding up the changing of the law believed to allow craigslist to worsen all sort of ills

(craigslist's role in increased prostitution/child trafficking) I just don't get Jeff Jarvis...

unlisted craigslist erotic/adult services review forum???

craigslist's role in child trafficking

(child sex trafficking) will be posting a critique of Jim Buckmaster's response, shortly...

child trafficking: I'm happy to see main stream outfits like CNN are finally doing a good job covering this!

[Seth Finkelstein has left a new comment on your post "(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there...":

(aside) zittrain & Harvard's Berkman Center: there is a big story there!

[craigslist criticism] New comment on (trafficking in women) real life protests against ....

(trafficking in women) real life protests against craigslist start

(comic & sad) Jim Buckmaster wants to shut up researchers

meaninglessly high search numbers for craigslist

Peninsula Congresswoman Jackie Speier, local bay area politician, moved to action

is craigslist's adult section much more effective then backpage etc.?

is Jim Buckmaster for real? giving another try...

is Craig Newmark honestly asking for suggestions?

Jim Buckmaster blasts poor Brad Stone of NYT

yet again, is craigslist facilitating prostitution?

trolls or "truth fighters"?

(aside) Arriana Huffington wants nothing controversial

(aside) (iPhone; iPad etc.) Dan Gillmor praises Jonathan Zittrain

speak now or forever hold your ... thoughts!

(aside) zittrain's doom & gloom technique still working for him...

does facebook facilitate the spread of syphilis, does craigslist facilitate all sort of crimes?

(comic) According to Mathew Ingram, Craig Newmark is a trust expert!

(aside) NYT: should readers' needs and wants matter?

(aside) Dan Gillmor's Mediactive: can advertisers be just... told off?

the hazards of mixing non-profit with for profit

(living on craigslist guy) not one of the dummies:)

as I was saying.... some people are so far gone

(aside) following on twitter: the truth & the fancy

(craigslist ownership) has Craig Newmark sold all his shares in craigslist?

(aside) Dan Gillmor's upcoming book: mediactive

ebay v. craigslist: Newmark and Buckmaster asked ebay to keep the "essentially extorsion" secret

more truth comes out: craigslist representative had told ebay that Newmark and Buckmaster "may have been looking for a way to cash out" -- say *what?*

craigslist: the ebay deal -- finally the truth gets out! (it only took a monster lawsuit)

is Michael Arrington right? Did Craig Newmark advise Wikipedia to have fund raising ads?

craigslist & CDA immunity: isn't craigslist co-creator of those ads given that it now screens them?

(craigslist prostitution) why did Dart's suit fail are similar suits doomed?

charging for adult/erotic ads -- the details

craigslist fundamentals: why the AIM group's estimate of revenue is a poor indicator

craigslist revenue: the AIM group's report credibility and limitations

Peter Zollman on the reasons the AIM group's estimate of craigslist's revenue from erotic/adult services is conservative

Did CATW misrepresent the AIM group's findings about craigslist revenue from adult/erotic services?

Gary Wolf's follow-up comments -- in full glory!

(craigslist profits/revenue) meaningful comparison of overall figures and figures from adult/erotic services

Gary Wolf tells the truth but holds on to many assumptions

(aside) Mediactive; Dan Gillmor's future book

New York Times reference to SC AG v. craigslist

the interviews continue to resemble PR jobs

(aside) time for a non-profit Twitter?

why did craigslist make an about-face? what EFF (Zimmerman) isn't telling...

(aside) is Twitter more democratic than regular blogging?

(Donna Jou) parents calling for craigslist preventing measures

is craigslist guilty of negligence in connection with wrongful death cases?

EFF continues to defend obsolete legal rationale

(comic relief) Jim calls the shape-up-or-else meeting with the AGs "cordial"!

sources of profit and such

"does [craigslist] promote prostitution and endanger the safety of its users?"

would valid craigslist criticism stop if craigslist would disclose their financials to the public?

another craigslist death...

email account fixed...(finally)

craigslist "customer service" -- the fundamentals are just not there...

comcast trouble with the email...

is Craig Newmark / craigslist pimping? The lawsuit's strength and weaknesses

dot org my....

on buying the SF Chronicle

(more) mindless PR

(prostitution) is craigslist "knowingly promoting and facilitating prostitution"?

Twitter: let's see if this thing works, again....

(Google search ranking) Robert Scoble's Ego feed beats The New York Times?

comic relief clean-up: ...going, going...

more truth comes out: craigslist representative had told ebay that Newmark and Buckmaster "may have been looking for a way to cash out" -- say what?

articles are still disappointing but comments are getting much better...